I do know you have to pay to get out of your contract if you have a retainer and I've never seen one instance where the union could fine anyone for decertification talk. Not to say that it hasn't happened. Pretty well uninforcable, especially in a right to work state where you cannot be forced to pay union dues or be affiliated with the union. For a company like FedEx that does not have a contract already with the union it is not that hard to decertify if they do not get what they are asking for in their contract. No contract no paying dues. So i dissagree with the whole bottom paragraph, in FedEx's case anyway. In an already unionize place, yeah it's pretty well impossible to get out of the union. Have a good weekend.
FedEx Freight | The Union Debate Thread
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joes bar and grill
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It all depends on the terms of the contract, try to leave your cell phone carrier before your contract is up and you have to pay a penalty, why? because it's in the contract.
It can be done, and another Union brought in, or not brought in.
This is part of the fear element brought in to scare the undecided. The solution, again, is to have the contract end date coincide with that window. Yes, the Union will resist that, but If I'm on the negotiating committee (I'm not), the term (length of the contract) will be right there at the top. Checks and balances, Red. Problem solved, let's move along. I don't care how things were done in the past or in some circumstances, we CAN set the parameters, if we want to.
Redracer3136
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That's why I'm with a cell phone carrier that offers no contracts, I can leave when I want!!
Redracer3136
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Not sayin it can't, just sayin it's almost impossible once a contract is ratified.
No scare tactic at all, just the facts man, just the facts!! Care for me to post links showing how hard it is to decert??
This is where you're wrong...it may be "at the top" but there's no guarantee you'll get it. Checks and balances....what are you willing to give up to get that "at the top"?? That's right, y'all don't plan on giving anything up...all checks, no balance!!
Correct, you CAN set the parameters....if those parameters are negotiated to be set.
The way I see it, you are the one dodging the obvious facts, wondering off track, making absolutely false statements
Your repeated talking points go like this: "Union support nationwide at FXFE is LESS than 1%...."
Based on the known proven numbers support has ranged from a low of 36% (LOU) to a high of 73% (STK). A 37% range. Are you with me so far? Of course you are...
Based (again) on proven vote totals, the actual measured support was 47.1%, while the mean average support was 49.1%.
Stay with me now. Typically, in order to reduce the effect of erradic deviation within the sample, we use truncated average, tossing out the high and low entries. So, in our case, we eliminate the 36%, as well as the 73% support figures.
Now this method shows verified support of 47.4% And a mean average of 53% (52.875%), but a range of only 26%. Again, we KNOW this from the sample group.
We could continue to drill down with further truncated averages, all the way down to 45%. Sorry, Red, but it does NOT go any lower than that.
Now we SHOULD be able to agree that nationwide support is likely to be far in excess of your 1% fantasy. A more likely range between 36% & 53%. There may be outliers within the group, higher and lower, but on average, zero chance and zero evidence to support your position.
I did tell you that typically trends in polling numbers do maintain similar margins across the country, on the national level, within a range.
Now, if you would like to attempt to prove me wrong, you'll need to do some research. For a good example of polling trends and how percentages carry on a national level, you might want to look at the results of the last presidential election, or 2. Compare the numbers from the few states we are talking about, then see how they held up nationally, and within what margin. I'm not going to do it for you but I'll help with directions... Bring your note pad and follow the link below.
http://elections.nbcnews.com/ns/politics/2012/all/president/#.V3T_7_krK70
Please report back the margin of error. Then see my conversation with JD to see why it matters.
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Redracer3136
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Not ignoring you, headed to the links before the 100* temps set in....I'll respond later.
I never said there was any evidence of support being applied from “other centers”. I did show where the law does in fact allow it.
I think the company is well aware that there is a certain degree of support. They, like us don't know the exact number. If it was 65% + there would most certainly be petitions filed from some of those. But don't forget, there can be significant support (in excess or 50%) long before any petition will even be considered. The only ones who really know the exact amount of documented support would be the Teamsters. Even they can't gauge the undocumented support that may exist.
I know for a fact there are/were several locations way over 50%, but not quite able to file. Then there is that one known to be at 88% that has yet to file. Part of Red's often quoted tsunami that has yet to materialize.
The point of all this is not to convince you or Red of the level of support. It is more directed at those watching from home, who wonder where they fit into all this.
Both sides need to be aware of the existence of this support, as well as the potential they possess. To ignore them would be foolish, for either side, IMHO
True, and sometimes you have to pay attention to the troops on the bench. Reserves, you might call them.
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Sex pistol
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Swamp I give you alot of credit you are very good with your percentages. I admit I have trouble following along, I'm just not that smart. That's why I just like to keep it simple and look at it as 372 centers no and 4 centers yes with 2 centers looking to decertify.
Thanks Sex, I understand how nice that looks, to you. But... of the 372, 362 locations (97%) have yet to be scored. Realistically it is not an accurate measure, and would/could be detrimental to the Company if they were to view support in such a way, ignoring the reality.
Obviously the advantage goes to the Company, and they can influence support by positive action, but the actual numbers are not nearly as lopsided as your example suggests.
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Sex pistol
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Yes I understand there are drivers at those 372 centers that support the union. I just need to keep it simple and it does look good for the anti union people doesn't it.
What seems odd to me about the company is that there pilots are union and they bought TNT Holland which is union too. And you never hear the company try to stop those employees or union. They just don't want to pay us what we are worth and get us cheep..".i am curious too see if the company ever reaches an agreement with the teamsters.
Even keeping it simple, while still keeping it in perspective, I seem to recall 10 centers voting. 4 yes, 6 no. That still indicates 40% of CENTERS that voted, support representation.
Cntr. - Yes - No - Ttl - %yes
STK : 33 - 12 - 45 - 73%
CLT : 110 - 97 - 207 - 53%
SBR : 66 - 42 - 108 - 61%
EPH : 26 - 18 - 41 - 63%
PBK : 9 - 11 - 20 - 45%
CRW : 14 - 24 - 38 - 37%
CGT : 91 - 143 - 234 - 39%
CIN : 46 - 57 - 113 - 45%
NEW : 44 - 57 - 101 - 44%
LOU : 49 - 87 - 136 - 36%
*Did I miss any?
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johndeere4020
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Ok swampy I've been a little busy, wasn't ignoring just busy. I'm not going to go back and quote all of your posts that seems counter productive so I'll hit them here if I miss a point let me know.
Starting with your contract language argument, I will GUARANTEE you will NOT get language in there that makes decertifying easy besides that I'm not sure the NLRB will allow it. The rules for decertifying a clear and unions are good at getting around them and have fought very hard to keep it that way you will not change it in contract language.
As far as your support argument goes, lets look at it more like the electoral college than a simple majority. I AM IN NO WAY trying to go political just using the construct to make my point. You listed the centers and their respective voting percentages, but until they officially join other than moral support it means nothing to Fedex. Back to my electoral college point, In California all the support goes to democrats, in Texas all the support goes to Republicans. Does that mean they're aren't Republicans in California and Democrats in Texas that don't support their partie? Of course there are but it means nothing until they have the majority. That's the same as it is with this campaign, until the other centers put their money where their mouth is it means nothing. In the companies mind (you have to agree with their thinking even if you don't agree with their goal) the movement only has the support of 4 centers out of 300+ and two of those have at least shown a weakness of support even if it was for nothing. So all the company has to do is beat these four centers back with drawn out or bad contracts and it could and might discourage he other centers. We have beat this poor horse until all that's left is the saddle, yet I still think there are those among you that think you will put forward a sweetheart contract and fold your arms until the company signs it. That's not how it works and never will, you don't get to keep voting no until you get your way. The Louisville regional supplement is a good example, they voted no and yet there it is. If this is a more appropriate venue I would be glad to delve further into that one.
The FACT is you have 4 centers out of over 300 that have voted to go forward so that's your percentage like it or not. The other centers could have 99% support but until they have a successful vote they are on the sidelines looking in.
I look forward to your response.
Starting with your contract language argument, I will GUARANTEE you will NOT get language in there that makes decertifying easy besides that I'm not sure the NLRB will allow it. The rules for decertifying a clear and unions are good at getting around them and have fought very hard to keep it that way you will not change it in contract language.
As far as your support argument goes, lets look at it more like the electoral college than a simple majority. I AM IN NO WAY trying to go political just using the construct to make my point. You listed the centers and their respective voting percentages, but until they officially join other than moral support it means nothing to Fedex. Back to my electoral college point, In California all the support goes to democrats, in Texas all the support goes to Republicans. Does that mean they're aren't Republicans in California and Democrats in Texas that don't support their partie? Of course there are but it means nothing until they have the majority. That's the same as it is with this campaign, until the other centers put their money where their mouth is it means nothing. In the companies mind (you have to agree with their thinking even if you don't agree with their goal) the movement only has the support of 4 centers out of 300+ and two of those have at least shown a weakness of support even if it was for nothing. So all the company has to do is beat these four centers back with drawn out or bad contracts and it could and might discourage he other centers. We have beat this poor horse until all that's left is the saddle, yet I still think there are those among you that think you will put forward a sweetheart contract and fold your arms until the company signs it. That's not how it works and never will, you don't get to keep voting no until you get your way. The Louisville regional supplement is a good example, they voted no and yet there it is. If this is a more appropriate venue I would be glad to delve further into that one.
The FACT is you have 4 centers out of over 300 that have voted to go forward so that's your percentage like it or not. The other centers could have 99% support but until they have a successful vote they are on the sidelines looking in.
I look forward to your response.
Redracer3136
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Although your numbers are a little off in some cases, and the percentages wouldn't change that much, it does make all the difference!!Even keeping it simple, while still keeping it in perspective, I seem to recall 10 centers voting. 4 yes, 6 no. That still indicates 40% of CENTERS that voted, support representation.
Cntr. - Yes - No - Ttl - %yes
STK : 33 - 12 - 45 - 73%
CLT : 110 - 97 - 207 - 53%
SBR : 66 - 42 - 108 - 61%
EPH : 26 - 18 - 41 - 63%
PBK : 9 - 11 - 20 - 45%
CRW : 14 - 24 - 38 - 37%
CGT : 91 - 143 - 234 - 39%
CIN : 46 - 57 - 113 - 45%
NEW : 44 - 57 - 101 - 44%
LOU : 49 - 87 - 136 - 36%
*Did I miss any?
E.g.: CLT's final tally was 110-99 making a difference of 11 votes or meaning all we need to turn is 6 drivers to win a decert election by one!! There's been over 6 pro-union drivers to the either retire, terminate themselves, or leave the company on their own to turn the tides our way, not to mention all of the former pro-union drivers that now side with us....and the best part is we didn't have to work hard to get them, the words (lies) and actions of the pro-union guys pushed them right to us!! Now some are trying to rebuild those bridges with more lies and fear mongering...they still don't get it!!
Now back to our original debate....I agree with JD, you can't apply these numbers/percentages to the masses without proof of support. Your numbers deal with the actual elections (good job), then you try to apply those numbers to centers that have yet to vote without anyway of knowing exactly how those centers would vote. Must I remind you that you guys "thought" the six centers that voted NO would in fact vote YES? That has you at 40% correct without factoring in the centers who filed then pulled their petitions, and the shear fact that so many petitions were filed then pulled due to lack of support proves that the perceived support isn't what it was once thought to be...and the fact that no new petitions have been filed in the last year and a half proves that the perceived support isn't there. The law says 30% support is needed to apply, if the IBT demands more, that's on them, but we'll never know the true support unless an election is held...and even then, as proven above, there's still no guarantee as to the degree/percentage of that support. With that being said, and providing that your numbers are correct, the total amount of yes voters of those who have actually voted still equals at or around 1%...and we already know that even that number has changed by the two decert petitions that were filed (70% & 80% respectively), regardless of their legality.
I deal with reality, you can deal with probabilities, speculation, or even truncated averages all you wish but there's zero evidence to support your claim of 36%-53% support for the union company wide!!
The evidence by those who have voted says around 1% company wide, to assume what the support is by those who haven't voted is speculation!!
More evidence than you have provided thats for sure. He has numbers from actual voting centers you just guess and say 1% based on absolutly no numbers or proof. If the numbers at the centers were showing 1% support i'd bet you would be rubbing that all over this thread. Am I wrong in that assumption? I'm sure your going to say I am wrong.
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johndeere4020
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I'll agree with you that there is most definitely more than 1 percent support. However how does it help without petitions filed and elections won?
Redracer3136
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I use the same numbers he does and those numbers tell us less than 1% nationally. He's looking at those numbers and trying to apply them to every center. The fact that those other centers have spoken by not filing (meaning they don't have the support to file) tells us everything we need to know.
Am I naive enough to believe there's not support at those centers...no, but my point is there's no way to gauge that support without an election, and even that's not a true gauge as supported by the two decert petitions from two of the four yes centers. To simply assume/predict that support is between 36%-53% by using the numbers from previous elections and applying them to those that haven't voted is ludicrous at best, there's too many variables between centers to actually know.
All we know, according to the elections that have taken place, is that "so far" less than 1% support the union nationally!!
johndeere4020
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I also agree with red here, using swampys numbers there have been 235 drivers voted yes out of what 15,000 plus? That is less than 1% any way you slice it. The ones who voted yes at the losing centers don't count because the only ones with a say in this is the yes centers.
Redracer3136
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I agree but even including the NO centers, that number still equates to 4?? and the IBT's latest campaign has them targeting ALL FXFE employees, including dockworkers, etc...so the total of 4?? is still less than 1% when speaking of FXFE's almost 50K employees!!
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