CVSA Inspection--looks bogus

DriveSafely

Redneck Anthropologist
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Hopefully, someone can save me some time looking all this stuff up.
Last month, I was pulled over by a trooper because my trailer lights had gone out. I had, of course, checked the lights before leaving on my run. Actually, I had checked them twice, because the particular tractor (a loaner) had a bad gladhand gasket on the service side. It was a plastic gasket, and was melted, probably due to brake antifreeze being used in the winter. I ran the truck over to the lease company a mile down the road (with the service line disconnected), so they could get dig it out of there, as well as make sure there were no pieces of gasket in the hose that could foul something up. While we were at it, we checked the other line and the pigtail.
It was daylight still, and everyone knows that it’s just about impossible to see if the lights are on on the trailer while sitting in the cab driving during the day, because many turn signal lamps are mounted under the trailer, and you can’t see them unless you’re going around a corner.
Anyway, the trooper shows me the how all the trailer lights are out, and I go and shake out the pigtail and get everything working again. Took about 30 seconds, if that. Then he went and did a Level II DOT Inspection. He asked to see my log book, which was current to the time I’d gotten off that morning. I had my start time, pretrip, and time at the shop scratched on another piece of paper, and he saw it, but wanted to see first where my log book was before I started bringing it up to current. I was then let go to do my run.
The report shows that I had violations under FMCSR 393.25(f)--no rear brake lights, and 393.9TS--no rear turn signals, and 395.8(f)(1)--log book not current. I thought these things were basically just notes by the trooper for FMCSA to use to see if there is are any negative trends they need to be looking at. I did however, fail to notice the “Y” (“Yes”) notation under OOS for the pigtail issues. I thought I had passed the inspection, because all was well when the trooper did his actual inspection.
My safety manager gets back to me and says that I had been “placed out of service” for the trailer lights, which made the company get 48 points on their CVSA score, and that they got 15 points for the log book. I don’t know what my points are yet.
I always thought that to be placed out-of-service meant that the truck could not be moved, and stickers would be placed on the truck, until someone came out to repair the problem, and signed off on the inspection sheet. This is also what other drivers are telling me. I was not told to initial the part where it says that the truck is “hereby declared out-of-service”. Also, FMCSR 395.13(b)(3) clearly states, “A driver failing only to have possession of a record of duty status current on the day of examination and the prior day, but has completed records of duty status up to that time (previous 6 days), will be given the opportunity to make the duty status record current.” The cop even wrote on the inspection that my log was current up to when I ‘d gotten off work that morning, about 12 hours earlier.
This all looks like a bunch of crap to me. I don’t see how just having trailer lights out and fixing it 30 seconds later constitutes an actual “out-of-service”, and the logbook part is completely bogus.
I’ve never had one of these before. Someone please advise. Thanks!
 
Only from what I gather, your lights were out when he spotted you, that IS a violation to you. Even though you got them working by wiggling the pigtail, they still were inoperable at the time he pulled you over, so yeah, you deserved that ticket.

Your logbook "NOT being current and up to date could be from your shop time. You claimed you had a scratch paper with that notation, why did you NOT note that time on the log, as in on duty not driving? You also could have forgotten to sign the previous day's log, did you look to see if you had done so..???

I think the OOS for the pigtail was noted that way due to the fact that even though it was NOT operable at the time he pulled you over, making THAT an OOS violation, he let you go cuz you at the very least got them temporarily working to be on your way.

It is not a load of crap that your trailer lights were not working and you got pulled over, hey. they WERE NOT working..~~!!!~~

You had really better re-check or re-think the logbook violation, after all, it was not a regular cop that pulled you over, he obviously saw a problem.

Now you have points on your PSP report, and your company y now has higher CSA points.

In the future, if the pigtail is loose and by wiggling them you get the lights to cut out, then get it replaced NOW, NOT later, you have to make the time to make sure your vehicle is ready to go, not, "i'll get by"...Same for your logbook, you failed at something, whatever, I do not know.

Now you have x number of PSP points to carry with you for 3 years. You need to find out how many total you have, go to the website and pay the fee for it, or you can get it for free, but it takes several weeks to do so.
 
Next time you have a "loose" pigtail, you can "tighten" it by inserting a PLASTIC seal under the insertion bit. I've done such MANY TIMES when I used to pull older trailers and the "trick' was handed down from another Driver Veteran.
The logbook (lag book, Comic book) not being updated is a familiar violation and i have acquired a few of them and as well have had a few troopers or coop personnel merely offer i update the coloring book to reflect current status, so it depends upon location and current driver events.
I REFUSE to sign any log page since in reality it reflects a fantasy, therefore it it not true and correct, nor could it ever be as i dismiss traffic congestion, accidents, construction, etc., and ONLY apply driving time from point to point. I've spoken with several people who no longer sign comic books.

Hope things work out FOR you.
CHEERS!!
 
First of all, I was not given a ticket, only a "Driver/Vehicle Examination Report" showing these things. There are no fines to pay, only the issue of these CVSA points.

Your logbook "NOT being current and up to date could be from your shop time. You claimed you had a scratch paper with that notation, why did you NOT note that time on the log, as in on duty not driving? You also could have forgotten to sign the previous day's log, did you look to see if you had done so..???

I've always scratched these times down quickly on a separate piece of paper, then transferred them to my log within the next 6 hours at least, unless it's the end of the day, then I'll catch it up after I get back up. This keeps my log from becoming too messy. All the on-duty time for pre-trip and shop time was there. I've gone through scales with my paperwork like that, and no one ever said anything. I had just started my day ("night"), and had only been on duty and driving for about 1.5 hours total. I didn't have that and all my off-duty time recorded on the log yet, but it WAS on the separate paper (Showed off duty 6am that morning, was pulled over 7:30pm that evening.) All previous logs were signed, only the current day's log wasn't because it wasn't done yet, of course.

I think the OOS for the pigtail was noted that way due to the fact that even though it was NOT operable at the time he pulled you over, making THAT an OOS violation, he let you go cuz you at the very least got them temporarily working to be on your way.

It is not a load of crap that your trailer lights were not working and you got pulled over, hey. they WERE NOT working..~~!!!~~

I thought an OOS meant that the truck was to stay put until someone came out to fix it, and signed off on the inspection report. Pulling someone over, saying they're OOS for 30 seconds just to be able to assess points, to me seems stupid.

I never said it was a load of crap that the trailer lights weren't working. They weren't, but they were working when I left the terminal, and stuff like that can break down on the road, as it did. Apparently, a piece of dirt was preventing it from working correctly. It worked for the rest of my run. The load of crap part is that they are expecting drivers to do the impossible--see lights on the back of a trailer when he is in the cab. All we can do is observe other traffic and hope someone will let us know out lights aren't on.

You had really better re-check or re-think the logbook violation, after all, it was not a regular cop that pulled you over, he obviously saw a problem.

It was Kansas State Trooper that pulled me over. He put on the report that logbook was only current to 6am that morning.

In the future, if the pigtail is loose and by wiggling them you get the lights to cut out, then get it replaced NOW, NOT later, you have to make the time to make sure your vehicle is ready to go, not, "i'll get by"

I did all that--this is what no one seems to understand. The lights WERE working perfectly before I left on the run, and I DID shake the pigtail to make sure they wouldn't cut out. As far as I knew, nothing needed fixed. Until I was pulled over.
 
UPDATE: I got the PSP report. Tells me the same thing that's on this inspection report. But it doesn't tell me how many points I have. How do I get that?
 
As far as the logbook violation goes if I remember correctly the log book must be current up to the current duty status. Meaning if you have started your day and done a pretrip and are driving it better show you came on duty done a lot and show driving. Say you start at 0900 show pti for 15 min. Then you start driving at 0915 and get pulled over at 1045 your log best show you as driving. They don't have to give you time to catch it up. I'm sorry but if your driving at night and your trailer lights go out your gonna know it. If your checking mirrors properly you will know if tthe trailer goes dark. Chalk it up as a learning experience. We have all been there. It sucks but learn from it.
 
UPDATE: I got the PSP report. Tells me the same thing that's on this inspection report. But it doesn't tell me how many points I have. How do I get that?


Ok, see what the PSP says, any and all violations listed should have the code, like an example, 392.5.

now see home many codes are listed.

then using this guide, in which you must scroll all the way down, you can then look up your total points against you.

Sadly, I have a brand new pc, and I do not have the website you need, so you do some searching yourself.
 
see I didnt read all that BS I just thought he was ticketed for no lights so it is 6 for that but I forgot the log book violation. I do NOT know how many before you are fired or can't get a job...
 
see I didnt read all that BS I just thought he was ticketed for no lights so it is 6 for that but I forgot the log book violation. I do NOT know how many before you are fired or can't get a job...

Each BASIC has the points involved, but then for the first year those points are x's 3.

so if one were to get a speeding on his inspection, the speeding is 5 points. then x's 3 =15

I had the whole list, p[age by page of points for ALL the infractions, but as I said, this is a new pc and as such I am not using google anymore, only IE, and there was no way to export from google to IE, so I only took whatever favorites I wanted. And since I cannot find that particular webpage right now, the o/p can do some goo-goo-googling.

The firing or hiring criteria depends on each individual employer. My (now) former employer, has told us "you get a total of 60 points on your PSP, you are history".

some employers may only tolerate 25 points. it is all insurance company driven.
 
I just found the site I once had.

He has on him right now a total of 51 PSP points. Starting now for one year. Next year they go down to double or, 34 points. his last year (his 3rd) the points will be 17.

So if his company has (say) a limit of 60 points like my former employer has, he's nearly toasted.

or if he goes out looking for work, and any prospective employer WILL check his PSP score, he may be un-hirable, again, insurance companies rule.
 
I just found the site I once had.

He has on him right now a total of 51 PSP points. Starting now for one year. Next year they go down to double or, 34 points. his last year (his 3rd) the points will be 17.

So if his company has (say) a limit of 60 points like my former employer has, he's nearly toasted.

or if he goes out looking for work, and any prospective employer WILL check his PSP score, he may be un-hirable, again, insurance companies rule.

Can you post the link to the website?

The codes for the violations I got are:
393.25(f)--Stop lamp violations
393.9TS--Inoperative Turn Signal
395.8(f)(1)--Drivers record of duty status not current

I see now how the regulation about allowing a driver to catch up his log if he's less than the previous day behind only applies to keeping a driver from being put out of service.

The first two violations come from the same single problem--pigtail.

The website above shows 6 points each for the first two violations, but has nothing for the log book violation. How many points is that? I'm assuming it's 5, because 51 divided by three is 17 6+6+5=17. 17x3+51.

I was never issued any fines, and was only put out of service for the light issues, which took 20-30 seconds to fix. Cop wrote me up for two violations for one problem. And my log times were on a separate piece of paper to be transferred to my log book once I got to a stopping point again, and I showed the cop that and he watched me transfer the times in front of him. He was obviously eyeballing my arse instead of my wallet. I should never have told him I have 15 years experience driving, with no moving violations, when he asked.
 
Is this the webpage? Shows all the points, but it's from the "CSA 2010" website, so I'm wondering if it's still current and accurate.
 
You did not provide a link to the web page you speak of, but the log book is 5 points.

scroll down to (I believe) about page 66 for the points/violations.

In the column marked driver, if you see a "Y", it is yours, and an "N" means no, it goes to the company.

http://csa.fmcsa.dot.gov/Documents/SMSMethodology.pdf

the cop did not have to issue any fine, or ticket, he did an inspection, that's your fine right there.

you won't be paying any money, but you will BE PAYING for getting fired or not hired someplace else.

YOU NEED to watch yourself EVERY MINUTE of every day. No excuses like,. "the lights were working when I left", cuz obviously, the cop stopped you cuz they were not.

The cop "may not" bother you for say ONE light being out, then again, he might, as the light would be inoperable, and he/she is with in his/her rights to do the job and ticket you on the spot, or do an inspection, and nail you that way.

so as it stands as I said, you have 51 PSP points right now. Your safety dept should have a talk with you about your future, as you also by the way, GAVE THEM CSA points for a total of 2 years, which now when their insurance company does an audit and THEY WILL, if the CSA score is too high, THEY WILL recommend certain drivers be "let go", as they are the cause of the high score.

You cannot blame anyone but yourself right now, you should have taken steps to ensure your lights were working, and if not, you should have found a way to secure the pigtail, and some of us use a folded up cardboard or paper jammed in there to hold it into place. Do you chew gum..?? if so, save a few of those foil wrappers, they make GREAT pig tail holders.>!!

You have now (hopefully) learned a very valuable AND perhaps a costly mistake on your part, the "costly" being if you get shyte canned, and cannot find anther job.


Finally, YES the web page may be from 2010, but IT IS as current as can be.
 
Oops, sorry. The weblink I found is:

http://www.csa2010.com/articles/CSA_2010_Fatigued_Driving_Violation_Severity_Weight_Table.htm

so as it stands as I said, you have 51 PSP points right now. Your safety dept should have a talk with you about your future, as you also by the way, GAVE THEM CSA points for a total of 2 years, which now when their insurance company does an audit and THEY WILL, if the CSA score is too high, THEY WILL recommend certain drivers be "let go", as they are the cause of the high score.

Actually, I've already quit that job. They basically hired me over the phone, and the job turned out to be nothing like they told me, and had all sorts of other issues, namely delays that made the runs take way too long. One reason being how the safety department accused me of being careless and "violating company rules" over this. Pre-trips are something I take seriously.

I DID make sure those lights were working before I left on the run, TWICE actually, and as I said before, a driver sitting in the cab of the truck going down the road cannot see if any of the lights on the trailer are on in the daylight, as turn signals are usually mounted UNDER the trailer. We have to observe other traffic, and see if they are not seeing our turn signals, or if they roll up beside us and point towards the trailer. The FMCSA is asking drivers to do the impossible by asking them to be able to see around corners and through opaque objects. Also, I got the lights working again quickly, without using any extra things in the pigtail plugs to do so.

And as for the log book, OK, it didn't show anything past when I'd gone off duty that morning, but I put my times on a separate piece of paper, so I could catch it up when I have time and am sitting still (like after I give my trailer to the other driver), and won't accidentally draw lines going to the wrong 15-minute vertical notch or something, making my log book a mess when I have to then correct it. I've gone through many scales with my log and the separate piece of paper and they didn't say anything.

OK. So it's established that I have 51 PSP points. I won't argue that the trailer lights went out, or that the log book was just a few hours behind.

Now, what can a driver do to challenge these sorts of issues--issues such as the fact that drawing lines on a piece of paper doesn't make a driver safer, especially when it's only a few hours, or that drivers can't see if the lights on trailers are on in the daylight very easily? I'm talking about a challenge that may result in changes to how these things are scored, not whether or not they happened. I've never had a ticket in a truck, and only one in my personal vehicle since 1996! But this cop has made me look like a total piece of crap over piddly-wink stuff.

BTW--I'm in Kansas City, and there are no lawyers here that know anything about DOT regulations or anything concerning trucks, except for those who only do personal injuries from trucking accidents, and they only know the regs relating to that.

Please advise. Thanks!
 
I should also add that a memo came out from the safety manager at this company before I left, saying there had been too many citations and warnings received by other drivers (usually due to speeding and not wearing a seat belt.) The memo there would now be a no-tolerance policy with no questions asked and no over-ruling by safety on any warnings or citations, a driver would just be fired. I left this company a week later.

I think the company already had a problem with their own CSA score, and the State Patrol was targeting them.

My nic is "DriveSafely" for a reason--that is actually how I drive, not just a nic I made up.
 
If you wish to challenge any of the violations, you can do so by going back to the website and read how to do it. It does involve the report going back to the police dept that issued the violations.

I never heard of anyone actually winning, let us know if you do.
 
I think the company already had a problem with their own CSA score, and the State Patrol was targeting them.

My nic is "DriveSafely" for a reason--that is actually how I drive, not just a nic I made up.

It don't matter your nic. you got the violations all the same. good luck to you.

as for a lawyer, if you were a member of OOIDA, you'd be able to contact them and they can help you find legal advice.

I can't.
 
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