ABF | Central States Pension Financial Update

Puff Driver that is true but not accurate. Let me see if I can put this in a context most people can understand. Most people (me included) operate our family finances in the “red zone.” What that means is if you add all your bills, house, car, credit cards, home equity loans, students loans, loans to the leg breakers, etc, you would not have enough money in checking and savings or your wallet to pay the debt if it was all called due immediately. Now, does that mean you are going broke? No, because you financed your debt over time. You, hopefully, will continue to work and earn a paycheck that will allow you to payoff the debt over time. Remember the song, “Time is on my side” by the rolling stone? It is true, most of us who have debt have time on our side. The pension fund is no different. And consider this, the pension fund's capital, the amount the fund has in savings, checking and its wallet, increased by $790 million dollars according to the funds quarterly statement. How do you claim you are going broke when your debt is reduced and you cash has increased??? Try explaining that to a bankruptcy judge. “Hay judge I have more cash now and less debt now than I did, but I'm in the red zone so I need to default on this debt to get me out of the red zone.”


Well put Homesick.

However, I've divided all CSPF financials by 100,000 to make the numbers more relatable to your analogy.

Less than 8 years ago 4 kids moved out of the house and gave you a parting gift of $61,000.
The value of everything you own is now $187,407.
You still have 4 mouths to feed.
You are $353,121 in debt.
The value of your home increased $7,900 last quarter.
You make $3,388/month.
Your household bills were $11,768/month last year.

Oh yeah and you also have quadruplets on the way, but one of your kids is helping out with the bills.

I think a BK judge might be sympathetic to your plight. ;)
 
Cool analogy EX396 but I disagree with the “quadruplets on the way.” So many employees have retired over the last dozen years or so I don't believe there are that many employees getting ready to retire. It makes more sense to me that more retirees are leaving the pension, than are entering it. I agree with you that people are living longer; but not that much longer. I don't know what the average age of the pension retiree is but I believe it is withing a few years either side of 80yrs old. You also have a great many employees who have less than 20 years paid into the pension. Consider all the Consolidated Freight employee who did not have enough time in the pension to retire but who could not find a union job. When they do retire they will not get 49K a year. Also, a lot of YRC drivers have only been getting pension credit at 25% for every year. That also reduces the pension liability. Most of them will not be getting 49K a year. And I can't speak for other companies, or even other ABF terminals, but ABF Atlanta is hiring more drivers over the age of 50 than under 40 years old. Of the last 17 drivers hired on the road in Atlanta I believe only one is under 40 years old.

So in keeping with your analogy, 2 or 3 of the 4 mouths we are feeding are getting ready to leave.

The $353,121 debt will be reduced and the value of what we own will increase because that capital is being put to work.

I do realize the pension is on the edge of a cliff. I just think that the pension is moving away from the cliff rather than getting closer to it. And that a judge will not grant bankruptcy as long as we can continue to pay our our debt and increase our working capital. That is my hope anyway :)
 
So many employees have retired over the last dozen years or so I don't believe there are that many employees getting ready to retire.

I don't know how many are "getting ready"...I do know that the greying of the workforce at YRCF is pretty substantial. They pretty much had to have 20 years of seniority just to remain working not too long ago.

Homesick said:
It makes more sense to me that more retirees are leaving the pension, than are entering it.

It would be interesting to see those numbers. We can look backwards and see the number of new members and the number of new retirees and see the ratio of retired:employed growing. However, I don't know if the average retiree has one foot in the grave and many still working don't plan to retire for another decade.

Homesick said:
I do realize the pension is on the edge of a cliff. I just think that the pension is moving away from the cliff rather than getting closer to it.

Time will tell. I'm guessing it's hanging on that cliff while someone went to get help. We'll see if help arrives soon enough.
 
EX396 my friend, your math looks correct but I don't believe the only way to save the fund is to cut retirees faster than the current workers retire. And to gain contributors. That is my knee jerk reaction because I NEVER like dichotomies (either-or situation). I think there are other options. Say cutting current retirees and future retirees (until the fund is more stable) payout by 10%. That would cut each retirees payout by an average of $112.30 a month. Not a great deal but it is less than the reduction in pay most of the current workers have taken over the last 5 years. Look at YRC, they took a 15% pay cut and we at ABF have taken a 7% + a weeks vacation pay cut. We share the responsibility so we should also share the consequences. And I don't believe these are the only options, but I am not smart enough to think of any others at this moment. Anyone have any suggestions?

I do know that Teamster management reads these message boards; it was a topic of discussion in the December union meeting. Think positive :)
So
 
EX396, you have looked at the pension fund and done the math. You know that the pension should be loosing money at a rapid rate due to the large amount of money going out and the small amount of money going in. But that is not what happened. The pension fund actual grew in value; contrary to what the math predicted. You have read my posts on what I think is happening and I am wondering what you think is happening? I know the stock market's outstanding rate of return has had a great deal to do with the fund improving but I don't think that explains it all. The funds value increased to much. I would also like to point out that according to central states pension estimator for 20 years the fund will pay $2,397 per month ($28,764 a year). And that is why I think help is on the way :)
 
Homesick ex is just a jealous driver that just spews hate and lies. He talks about our pension fund and he brags about his 401k he belongs to.
If I am not mistaken they are both fueled by the stock market. When a Teamster receives just a few years payments he will have received for the most part as much of or more than ex will from his 401k.

So he has no argument or dog in our pension fund fight. He is just a small minded keyboard cowboy that would never hold this conversation to a Teamsters face. In our worse case scenario we will still be better off than him. He will be taking money out at a rate that will someday surely deplete his 401k. We can start drawing our pensions at least a year before he can get to his 401k money without a HUGE PENALTY.

He claims to be doing well on the investments he controls in his 401k. But as I read his post that would not be true. He sounds scared and quick to jump in with many wrong uninformed statements. That alone would be proof enough that he is more than likely out picking up aluminum cans and holding a sign at off ramps.

He has no clue that all the people being paid out of the fund is not at full rates and most are survivors which means they are at a very reduced rate. But like normal he talks about things that he knows nothing about.
 
You have read my posts on what I think is happening and I am wondering what you think is happening? I know the stock market's outstanding rate of return has had a great deal to do with the fund improving but I don't think that explains it all.

That's exactly what I think explains most of it.
 
Thanks for that Brother Muler. I know he is anti-Teamster (that is what he posted) and he does not like our pension. But I enjoy debating with him and he does look into our pension problems. I do not agree with his conclusions and I try to point out the problems with the way he reached his conclusions. Personally, he is the kind of person I hope to have coffee with once or twice a week when I am retired. I think the conversation's would be stimulating and heated and would keep us both from going brain dead with boredom.

Ex396 does have a point about his 401k being left to his family once he has passed and our pension money returning to the fund once we have passed (or after our spouse has passed if we picked that option). What he leaves out is that we can also have a 401k (or IRA) that we could leave to our families when we pass. That fund would not be company funded but EX396's 401k is not fully funded by the company either. So there is not a lot of difference between the two plans except our pension gives us more money, we have a choice on whether or not to fund a 401k, and our pension is completely funded by the company and does not FORCE us to contribute in order to receive the companies match. We can choose to spend that money on our self, or our family, and still receive money upon retirement.
 
Homesick ex is just a jealous driver that just spews hate and lies. He talks about our pension fund and he brags about his 401k he belongs to.

Wrong on so many levels. I'm not jealous, not a driver, don't spew hate and lies. Don't belong to a 401K.

Muler said:
When a Teamster receives just a few years payments he will have received for the most part as much of or more than ex will from his 401k.

Wrong again. You have no idea the health of my retirement portfolio.

Muler said:
So he has no argument or dog in our pension fund fight.

Finally, you are half-correct. I don't have a dog in your pension fund fight.

Muler said:
He is just a small minded keyboard cowboy that would never hold this conversation to a Teamsters face.

So wrong again. I have had this conversation with many Teamsters and other general pro-union folks over the years.

Muler said:
He claims to be doing well on the investments he controls in his 401k.

Show me one thread where I made such a statement. I guarantee I haven't as I don't have a 401K. See, when you tell the truth you don't have to keep track of the lies you've made.

Muler said:
But like normal he talks about things that he knows nothing about.

I love the irony!
 
That's exactly what I think explains most of it.

You think the high rate of return is what is keeping our pension fund from deteriorating? The S&P only returned 11.4% last year. So if your assumption is correct, then the pension would only need to be cut by less than 10% per retiree in order to keep the fund growing. Remember the total number of retirees has declined in last pension statement.
 
I know he is anti-Teamster (that is what he posted) and he does not like our pension. But I enjoy debating with him and he does look into our pension problems. I do not agree with his conclusions and I try to point out the problems with the way he reached his conclusions. Personally, he is the kind of person I hope to have coffee with once or twice a week when I am retired. I think the conversation's would be stimulating and heated and would keep us both from going brain dead with boredom.

I think I would enjoy that too. Can we invite SwampRatt too?

Homesick said:
Ex396 does have a point about his 401k being left to his family once he has passed and our pension money returning to the fund once we have passed (or after our spouse has passed if we picked that option). What he leaves out is that we can also have a 401k (or IRA) that we could leave to our families when we pass. That fund would not be company funded but EX396's 401k is not fully funded by the company either. So there is not a lot of difference between the two plans except our pension gives us more money, we have a choice on whether or not to fund a 401k, and our pension is completely funded by the company and does not FORCE us to contribute in order to receive the companies match. We can choose to spend that money on our self, or our family, and still receive money upon retirement.

Maybe my pro 401(k) vs. pension as an option lead folks to believe I have a 401(k) fund. I do not.
 
But there is a 60 month payout for the survivor or survivors of a vested member. And at 3500 a month times 60 would be $210,ooo.00. Would that not be like a 401k payout? What ex fails to hit on are things like the health insurance that comes along with be a vested member of the pension funds. He doesn't speak of the available prescription benefits.

He doesn't speak of the supplemental health care benefits available through being a vested member of the funds. How much will his health insurance and the thousands of others that have only retirement savings accounts and not defined pensions and health care benefits. No I will take my benefits any day over those.

He speaks of cuts and changes but he doesn't know if and when or the amount of any such cuts might be. I find his post to be those of someone that never had the courage to demand better pay and benefits and he comes on a union forum to hide behind a keyboard and whine.

By the way what great company retirement plan does he have? How much does his company pay into his retirement weekly or monthly?

On this thread he spoke of Teamsters voting for a dollar an hour raise instead of putting it into the pension funds. Let's see what that dollar an hour comes to when working a 60 hour week. for the first 40 hours of the week you would earn $40.00 for the next 20 hours you would earn $30.00. If my math is correct if you were a Teamster and preferred to control your own retirement like ex just one contract year raise would have given you $3640.00 dollars a year to put into a private retirement fund.

Now lets see what that would have given a TEAMSTER BROTHER in just invested money into the private retirement fund over a 35 year career. I believe that amount would be $127,400.00 for just the one dollar raise we got by virtue of being TEAMSTERS.

Not to mention the fact that we received raises almost every year along with cost of living raises on top of receiving a DEFINED BENEFIT RETIREMENT.

From where I set he was the big loser not we TEAMSTERS! YOUR JUST STATING THE FACTS BROTHER ALWAYS!
 
Homesick ex is just a jealous driver that just spews hate and lies. He talks about our pension fund and he brags about his 401k he belongs to.
If I am not mistaken they are both fueled by the stock market. When a Teamster receives just a few years payments he will have received for the most part as much of or more than ex will from his 401k.

So he has no argument or dog in our pension fund fight. He is just a small minded keyboard cowboy that would never hold this conversation to a Teamsters face. In our worse case scenario we will still be better off than him. He will be taking money out at a rate that will someday surely deplete his 401k. We can start drawing our pensions at least a year before he can get to his 401k money without a HUGE PENALTY.

He claims to be doing well on the investments he controls in his 401k. But as I read his post that would not be true. He sounds scared and quick to jump in with many wrong uninformed statements. That alone would be proof enough that he is more than likely out picking up aluminum cans and holding a sign at off ramps.

He has no clue that all the people being paid out of the fund is not at full rates and most are survivors which means they are at a very reduced rate. But like normal he talks about things that he knows nothing about.
Just got my 1099 from CSPF $44,981.64 Ben getting that since I retired From Roadway342 end of July 06.
 
But there is a 60 month payout for the survivor or survivors of a vested member. And at 3500 a month times 60 would be $210,ooo.00. Would that not be like a 401k payout

If you died one month after starting to collect your pension your entire retirement nest egg for your surviving spouse would be a measly $210K.

Muler said:
What ex fails to hit on are things like the health insurance that comes along with be a vested member of the pension funds. He doesn't speak of the available prescription benefits.

Until what age?

Muler said:
He doesn't speak of the supplemental health care benefits available through being a vested member of the funds. How much will his health insurance and the thousands of others that have only retirement savings accounts and not defined pensions and health care benefits. No I will take my benefits any day over those.

Who knows? I'm guessing those benefits are going to be very expensive. You are guessing that yours will be around.

Muler said:
I find his post to be those of someone that never had the courage to demand better pay and benefits and he comes on a union forum to hide behind a keyboard and whine.

So far from the truth, you have no idea. The day after I took that withdrawal card I let my merit and my own negotiating skills determine what my compensation package was going to be.

Muler said:
By the way what great company retirement plan does he have? How much does his company pay into his retirement weekly or monthly?

My retirement plan specifics are none of your business. I will tell you that it's somewhere between yours and Warren Buffets.

Muler said:
On this thread he spoke of Teamsters voting for a dollar an hour raise instead of putting it into the pension funds. Let's see what that dollar an hour comes to when working a 60 hour week. for the first 40 hours of the week you would earn $40.00 for the next 20 hours you would earn $30.00. If my math is correct if you were a Teamster and preferred to control your own retirement like ex just one contract year raise would have given you $3640.00 dollars a year to put into a private retirement fund.

Quote please. I think you are mixing up statements from different threads about different scenarios and how contracts are negotiated.

Muler said:
From where I set he was the big loser not we TEAMSTERS! YOUR JUST STATING THE FACTS BROTHER ALWAYS!

Your posts would be so much shorter if you stuck to the facts.
 
I know this board is what it is but this ::shit:: is getting old for me. And in case you two haven't noticed not too many are chiming in. So...ex396 I think you're an ex driver and a current nuisance who cries like a baby when he gets his ass handed to him by a real Teamster. If you want to continue take it to PM.

Thank You.
 
I know this board is what it is but this :::shit::: is getting old for me. And in case you two haven't noticed not too many are chiming in. So...ex396 I think you're an ex driver and a current nuisance who cries like a baby when he gets his ass handed to him by a real Teamster. If you want to continue take it to PM.

Thank You.

Very professional of you Mr. Super Moderator. Crying about my crying and all. I won't be getting any more tears in your little corner of your precious sandbox. You and your fellow brothers and sisters at ABF have fun talking about how great your IBT, and how healthy your CSPF, and all the other rainbows, butterflies and unicorns. It matters to me not a single bit for another second. Good riddance.
 
Funny he talk bad about TEAMSTERS receiving great retirement benefits. HATER and I am glad I was the one to point out his lack of knowledge of our way of life. He never would speak of his now did he? NEXT! YOUR FACT POSTING BROTHER ALWAYS!
 
Very professional of you Mr. Super Moderator. Crying about my crying and all. I won't be getting any more tears in your little corner of your precious sandbox. You and your fellow brothers and sisters at ABF have fun talking about how great your IBT, and how healthy your CSPF, and all the other rainbows, butterflies and unicorns. It matters to me not a single bit for another second. Good riddance.
AW SHUCKS , we're sure gonna miss you:fingure::fingure:
 
What I find interesting is that our (retirement) pension fund is something that is very important to everyone. But, EX396 and I seem to be the only people who have any opinion on it. Does anyone agree, disagree, or even care?

Retirees of bankrupt companies (CF, Preston, ANR) will take a 15-20% hair cut next year. If you are a retiree from ABF you will not take a hit on your pension.

My only opinion is just keeping voting Republican at least they say to your face they are going to screw the working man and then follow through with it!
 
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