ABF | First paragraph tells you how bad it is. 87 year old as a "new" employee!

How many 40 years old at YRC will outlive their Teamster pensions???
Better yet how many 40 years olds at YRC will ever get a pension check??


Good point. They’ve conspired to ruin the guaranteed low-maintenance government insurance backed pension.....

......in order to stampede everyone into a Wall Street created uninsured, no Government oversight, no guarantee, high maintenance investment scheme..........just to have a slight hope dangling out in front of them that they will have.......something to retire with......

Better hope they don’t ruin Social Security........

Of course, in times of employee shortages to fill jobs.......employers love cut pensions and S.S.
Keeps guys working longer.......
 
Good point. They’ve conspired to ruin the guaranteed low-maintenance government insurance backed pension.....

......in order to stampede everyone into a Wall Street created uninsured, no Government oversight, no guarantee, high maintenance investment scheme..........just to have a slight hope dangling out in front of them that they will have.......something to retire with......

Better hope they don’t ruin Social Security........

Of course, in times of employee shortages to fill jobs.......employers love cut pensions and S.S.
Keeps guys working longer.......

Canary, your somewhat narrow minded views of 401k's are amusing but sad at the same time. Where do you come up with the idea that a 401k is an "investment scheme"? I just got my June 30 statement from one of my 401k's and the year-to-date rate of return is 6.5%. Not too shabby for only six months wouldn't you say?
 
The one retirement vehicle I never worry about is social security. The U.S. government has the largest printing presses in the world. And AARP makes sure retired people get their money or Anerica has a lot of freshmen representatives (both senator and congressman).
 
Canary, your somewhat narrow minded views of 401k's are amusing but sad at the same time. Where do you come up with the idea that a 401k is an "investment scheme"? I just got my June 30 statement from one of my 401k's and the year-to-date rate of return is 6.5%. Not too shabby for only six months wouldn't you say?


Ahh,......That's good, Brother.....but is there any guarantee that the market won't do one of their famous "adjustments" before you are able to withdraw that money? That money is only on paper until the day AFTER age 59.5 (No early retirements on 401(k)'s.......no matter what the state of your health is...)..........and you still pay taxes on it unless you immediately roll it into an annuity, or some other continuous investment scheme (IRA's and such..) which allow the INVESTORS to "play" with the principal , while allowing you...the OWNER(purportedly) of the money only access to the interest side.

Since Wall Street and the various investment firms conspire together to set annuity and interest rates,.....absent any oversight from the Government (Free Market, right?)..........they can use demographics to control and adjust when and where,....and who,....can afford to retire. The "choice" is taken away from the potential...retiree,.....and all decisions are based on the value of the money in the...market............NOT age, or health, or personal home situations (spouse health?)........

Ask any investment firm,........Or better,....read the fine print on the bottom of any prospectus.......

They will TELL you that 401(k)'s, 501's, IRA's, Roth IRA's are all investment "vehicles"(schemes).....and that there are NO guarantees...(Let the Buyer Beware!)

They will also warn you not to regard these.....schemes.....as a sole retirement vehicle.......

Yet,.....Many employers have ONLY a defined-contribution......scheme.......marketed to their employees as a "retirement" plan.

I hope fervently that the money you are told is there,.....will be there when you retire. And ...that you don't get a nasty "surprise" a few months before your planned retirement,...with a Wall Street sponsored "market adjustment".....

I lost half the value of my personal 401(k) through several..."market adjustments"...over the 15 years I was ..."invested"...in it.

Thank God I had a MEPF defined-benefit plan......with a guarantee of money to be paid, based on time served,...not market values.

And, yeah,........I know they're trying to....sabotage.....MEPFs, and ALL defined-benefit plans.

Red Flags, anyone?
 
Ahh,......That's good, Brother.....but is there any guarantee that the market won't do one of their famous "adjustments" before you are able to withdraw that money? That money is only on paper until the day AFTER age 59.5 (No early retirements on 401(k)'s.......no matter what the state of your health is...)..........and you still pay taxes on it unless you immediately roll it into an annuity, or some other continuous investment scheme (IRA's and such..) which allow the INVESTORS to "play" with the principal , while allowing you...the OWNER(purportedly) of the money only access to the interest side.

What are you talking about? I left funds in my 401k's and take my mandatory withdrawals (required by IRS after age 70-1/2) every year. No "investors" do anything with my funds, I control where those funds (both principal and interest) are invested and I can change at any time. Where are you getting your information? Of course I pay tax on my yearly distributions because I made the initial contributions tax-deferred.

Since Wall Street and the various investment firms conspire together to set annuity and interest rates,.....absent any oversight from the Government (Free Market, right?)..........they can use demographics to control and adjust when and where,....and who,....can afford to retire. The "choice" is taken away from the potential...retiree,.....and all decisions are based on the value of the money in the...market............NOT age, or health, or personal home situations (spouse health?)........

What? The Federal Reserve sets interest rates, not "Wall Street" or investment firms. Wow, you are really off the mark about finance/investments. You need to spend less time on here and get a bit educated about investment.

Ask any investment firm,........Or better,....read the fine print on the bottom of any prospectus.......

They will TELL you that 401(k)'s, 501's, IRA's, Roth IRA's are all investment "vehicles"(schemes).....and that there are NO guarantees...(Let the Buyer Beware!)

They will also warn you not to regard these.....schemes.....as a sole retirement vehicle.......

Yet,.....Many employers have ONLY a defined-contribution......scheme.......marketed to their employees as a "retirement" plan.

I hope fervently that the money you are told is there,.....will be there when you retire. And ...that you don't get a nasty "surprise" a few months before your planned retirement,...with a Wall Street sponsored "market adjustment".....

Of course the wording states that there are "no guarantees", that statement is required by government regulations. Tell me how guaranteed are MEPF pension plans these days? My money is there in my 401k's, I've been watching it grow and I've been making my mandatory withdrawals/distributions for a number of years now. I decide where to invest that money - mutual funds, bonds, etc.

I lost half the value of my personal 401(k) through several..."market adjustments"...over the 15 years I was ..."invested"...in it.

Thank God I had a MEPF defined-benefit plan......with a guarantee of money to be paid, based on time served,...not market values.

And, yeah,........I know they're trying to....sabotage.....MEPFs, and ALL defined-benefit plans.

Red Flags, anyone?

I'm sorry you lost your investment in your 401k. I have no idea where you invested that money but it was apparently your decision where to invest it wasn't it? And I'll ask again, how well are MEPF's "guaranteeing" returns these days? Ask guys whose "promised" payouts have been or are about to be cut drastically. Your thinking about all of this is really off track. You really do need to put aside you biases and get a little better educated about investing. You are sadly misinformed about a lot of it.
 
The one retirement vehicle I never worry about is social security. The U.S. government has the largest printing presses in the world. And AARP makes sure retired people get their money or Anerica has a lot of freshmen representatives (both senator and congressman).


You'd better check on certain Political Party's stances on Social Security,...........Like a certain Party's President , in 2005, attempting to "privatize" Social Security,.....Or like a certain current Speaker of the House's on-record statements about de-funding Social Security and Medicare.........And please,....Don't take MY word for that,....Look it up on ANY site you choose....

We won't go to that cesspool we regard as "political debate" nowadays...........There is a thread on TB,....for those with masochistic and sadistic tendencies,...where you can feel your brain cells leaking out your ears........for those inclined to "debate" the merits of Government policy.........(...neener- neener- neener, and Yer Ma!)

And,....Yes,.......Social Security and Medicare are regarded as "third-rail" issues,........Not to be touched by any politician wanting to be...re-elected......

But,....Big Business HATES these "social programs",...which, in their eyes,....allows "lazy" workers to get out of the Labor pool LONG before Big Business is done...using ..them.

Since the Citizen's United Supreme Court ruling,........WHO, pray tell,.....is the biggest source of funding for politicians?
Once again,.......don't take MY word for that,.........Look it up,.....ANYWHERE.......Yer on a computer, fer cryin' out loud......

Things don't happen,....immediately,...in politics. Too obvious to the voters........Things happen...incrementally....Little bit at a time.

I spent the last 10 years as a Political Action Fund Treasurer........the guy who signs the checks......dealing with politicians of every stripe and Party........I kind of know Wherefore I Speak Of,.....regarding politicians, and their....willingness to do,....anything....to get re-elected.

Mark Twain said: "There is no distinctly American criminal class......except Congress.."

WE,..(..the VOTERS..)..have to be vigilant that Social Security, Medicare, and other "safety net" programs aren't STOLEN from us,....to appease the Business class......(who are only concerned with control of the available Labor pool...)
 
What are you talking about? I left funds in my 401k's and take my mandatory withdrawals (required by IRS after age 70-1/2) every year. No "investors" do anything with my funds, I control where those funds (both principal and interest) are invested and I can change at any time. Where are you getting your information? Of course I pay tax on my yearly distributions because I made the initial contributions tax-deferred.



What? The Federal Reserve sets interest rates, not "Wall Street" or investment firms. Wow, you are really off the mark about finance/investments. You need to spend less time on here and get a bit educated about investment.



Of course the wording states that there are "no guarantees", that statement is required by government regulations. Tell me how guaranteed are MEPF pension plans these days? My money is there in my 401k's, I've been watching it grow and I've been making my mandatory withdrawals/distributions for a number of years now. I decide where to invest that money - mutual funds, bonds, etc.



I'm sorry you lost your investment in your 401k. I have no idea where you invested that money but it was apparently your decision where to invest it wasn't it? And I'll ask again, how well are MEPF's "guaranteeing" returns these days? Ask guys whose "promised" payouts have been or are about to be cut drastically. Your thinking about all of this is really off track. You really do need to put aside you biases and get a little better educated about investing. You are sadly misinformed about a lot of it.


Thank you for informing me about my misinformed and ill-spent educational life.

I was under the impression that as long as you parked that money with an investment firm,.....they would be doing the "professional" investing with that principal,..on your "behalf"

And,.....where does the Federal Reserve get it's recommendations as to when, where, and how much, to raise and lower interest rates? Surely not from a Non-Governmental Body,...such as Goldman-Sachs Board of Directors?......

I realize you've been very successful in your investing,....and I've been a miserable failure. Which of our "experiences" is probably more endemic to the....average .......investor out there? I'm sure you've seen the average investment rate chart,...denoting that about 82% of people involved with 401(k)'s, and such,....have nowhere near the kind of money they will need for retirement?

Would that...chart...indicate that ...82% of investors are...miserable failures, like I am?

And I agree with you that MEPF's are....under attack. We probably would disagree as to...whom is doing the "attacking".....

Once again,...I abase myself profoundly in lieu of your vastly well-informed knowledge of the stock market.....
 
Thank you for informing me about my misinformed and ill-spent educational life.

I was under the impression that as long as you parked that money with an investment firm,.....they would be doing the "professional" investing with that principal,..on your "behalf"

And,.....where does the Federal Reserve get it's recommendations as to when, where, and how much, to raise and lower interest rates? Surely not from a Non-Governmental Body,...such as Goldman-Sachs Board of Directors?......

I realize you've been very successful in your investing,....and I've been a miserable failure. Which of our "experiences" is probably more endemic to the....average .......investor out there? I'm sure you've seen the average investment rate chart,...denoting that about 82% of people involved with 401(k)'s, and such,....have nowhere near the kind of money they will need for retirement?

Would that...chart...indicate that ...82% of investors are...miserable failures, like I am?

And I agree with you that MEPF's are....under attack. We probably would disagree as to...whom is doing the "attacking".....

Once again,...I abase myself profoundly in lieu of your vastly well-informed knowledge of the stock market.....

Your sarcasm is well noted. I decided a long time ago that I needed to take responsibility for my own financial future and I read and asked questions and learned as much as I could. I'm no expert by any means but I'm reasonably comfortable in my so-called retirement years partially because I didn't count on anyone else to take care of me. That's just who I am.

You might be better off not seeing the financial industry as so much of an evil force but as a necessary part of a vibrant economy which can be to your advantage if you utilize it wisely. But if you just want to play the victim card have at it.
 
Please do look it up yourself, you might be in for a surprise...
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php


And I did,.........in the list of 45 top donors to political parties,......11 of them were Labor Unions on behalf of their members,........and the remaining 34 were business groups on behalf of their Board of Directors.......

I assume you're a working person,...maybe even a former member of a Labor Union . Would you feel happier if there were no Labor Unions listed on that list?

And,.....If you don't,...or never,...belonged to a Labor Union,...........where on that list is your....voice?

Sen. Mitch McConnell said, on the floor of the Senate, during debate of the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance bill.....that: "Spending is Free Speech.."....which belies the question: "How much Free Speech can you Afford?..........And, how much can your Employer Afford?"...........

I think we'll both agree that the average person's ....voice....has been watered down to the point of negligibility,...by the flood of money from Big Business groups,....answerable only to their Board of Directors, shareholders, and their own personal interests,......even if it goes against the Common and National Good..........
 
And I did,.........in the list of 45 top donors to political parties,......11 of them were Labor Unions on behalf of their members,........and the remaining 34 were business groups on behalf of their Board of Directors.......
<snip>

And, if my math is correct, of those top 45 donors, a total of $180,972,679 was contributed to Democrats/Liberals and $111,667,781 was contributed to Republicans/Conservatives. Not exactly close is it?

PS - I have to take a time out now, it's a beautiful day and I have to go outside and wax my Maserati. (That's what I call my 21 year old pickup, it needs an ego boost.)
 
Your sarcasm is well noted. I decided a long time ago that I needed to take responsibility for my own financial future and I read and asked questions and learned as much as I could. I'm no expert by any means but I'm reasonably comfortable in my so-called retirement years partially because I didn't count on anyone else to take care of me. That's just who I am.

You might be better off not seeing the financial industry as so much of an evil force but as a necessary part of a vibrant economy which can be to your advantage if you utilize it wisely. But if you just want to play the victim card have at it.


And,.....sorry about the sarcasm. Truly....You've done well and educated yourself,....and I truly do applaud that.......I respect any working person who can self-educate him,...or herself.

And I enjoy debating with you.

I am of the opinion that a burgeoning business class is buying our Government, media, and social outlets,....and re-making our priorities in the sense that ...everything must be quantified in terms of ...dollars and cents...And, that those things you can't put a....price tag....on..( Honor, Dignity, Patriotism, Family life...)....are to be discounted as negligible,....and not "worth".. anything, especially at a commercial level and value.....

I've read Adam Smith,.....a certain amount of...commerce is neccesary. But I think that Big business is using it's lobbying and financial clout to re-make our society in THEIR image,.....where a person's worth is judged solely on his financial means....

I've also read a lot of Twain,.......who is much, much more lucid and verbose than I could ever be , about "manufactured" worth of humans.

Again,.........Don't take offence at my remarks......I hope I am adult enough not to "personalize" my criticism and debate. Sometimes my Ego dances out through my fingers on the keyboard.......
 
And,.....sorry about the sarcasm. Truly....You've done well and educated yourself,....and I truly do applaud that.......I respect any working person who can self-educate him,...or herself.

And I enjoy debating with you.

I am of the opinion that a burgeoning business class is buying our Government, media, and social outlets,....and re-making our priorities in the sense that ...everything must be quantified in terms of ...dollars and cents...And, that those things you can't put a....price tag....on..( Honor, Dignity, Patriotism, Family life...)....are to be discounted as negligible,....and not "worth".. anything, especially at a commercial level and value.....

I've read Adam Smith,.....a certain amount of...commerce is neccesary. But I think that Big business is using it's lobbying and financial clout to re-make our society in THEIR image,.....where a person's worth is judged solely on his financial means....

I've also read a lot of Twain,.......who is much, much more lucid and verbose than I could ever be , about "manufactured" worth of humans.

Again,.........Don't take offence at my remarks......I hope I am adult enough not to "personalize" my criticism and debate. Sometimes my Ego dances out through my fingers on the keyboard.......
This is exactly it. Capitalism is great...until the pigs get hold of the grain dispenser.

My dad got wiped out in 2008/2009, and he's still working to this day. Come to think of it, that was around the time he stopped listening to Rush Limbaugh, wasn't it? Hm.
 
This is exactly it. Capitalism is great...until the pigs get hold of the grain dispenser.

My dad got wiped out in 2008/2009, and he's still working to this day. Come to think of it, that was around the time he stopped listening to Rush Limbaugh, wasn't it? Hm.


Oh no! You said a dirty word!
You said "Rush Limbaugh"........

Or,.....as those of us in the Pittsburgh area, of a certain age.....know him as "Jim Christy".......a minor DJ at a minor pop radio station,....
At least until his unsavory habit with pills cost him his job....

But,.......that was decades ago,......and I'm sure "Rush" as he's now known, has grown into a man of dignity and probity, and speaks with measured veracity.......
 
You'd better check on certain Political Party's stances on Social Security,...........Like a certain Party's President , in 2005, attempting to "privatize" Social Security,.....Or like a certain current Speaker of the House's on-record statements about de-funding Social Security and Medicare.........And please,....Don't take MY word for that,....Look it up on ANY site you choose....

We won't go to that cesspool we regard as "political debate" nowadays...........There is a thread on TB,....for those with masochistic and sadistic tendencies,...where you can feel your brain cells leaking out your ears........for those inclined to "debate" the merits of Government policy.........(...neener- neener- neener, and Yer Ma!)

And,....Yes,.......Social Security and Medicare are regarded as "third-rail" issues,........Not to be touched by any politician wanting to be...re-elected......

But,....Big Business HATES these "social programs",...which, in their eyes,....allows "lazy" workers to get out of the Labor pool LONG before Big Business is done...using ..them.

Since the Citizen's United Supreme Court ruling,........WHO, pray tell,.....is the biggest source of funding for politicians?
Once again,.......don't take MY word for that,.........Look it up,.....ANYWHERE.......Yer on a computer, fer cryin' out loud......

Things don't happen,....immediately,...in politics. Too obvious to the voters........Things happen...incrementally....Little bit at a time.

I spent the last 10 years as a Political Action Fund Treasurer........the guy who signs the checks......dealing with politicians of every stripe and Party........I kind of know Wherefore I Speak Of,.....regarding politicians, and their....willingness to do,....anything....to get re-elected.

Mark Twain said: "There is no distinctly American criminal class......except Congress.."

WE,..(..the VOTERS..)..have to be vigilant that Social Security, Medicare, and other "safety net" programs aren't STOLEN from us,....to appease the Business class......(who are only concerned with control of the available Labor pool...)
Brother, there have been more foolish ideas introduced into Congress than I can count. The vast majority are introduced to placate individuals or to bring notoriety to that representative. Your single minded idea about MEPF is reminding me of Senator Joseph. He could not see reason, caused a lot of damage to people and our country, and introduced several go nowhere bills.
 
Senator Joseph McCarthy.


Ahh,.....So I'm the 21st century version of the "Red Scare",...am I?

The screen name "Canary-in-the-mine" should tell you that I am rather prescient about things I construe to be ....harmful,....to working people,............especially where it seems that the powers that be are creating a status quo.

The idea is not so much about the engineered destruction of defined-benefit MEPFs, as it is about public perception of.....Wall Street's idea of what passes,...in their eyes,...for a worker "pension",.....and their ability to manipulate the parameters of those defined-contribution "schemes"...

And,...Yes, I'll keep calling them "schemes"

Would you say Wall Street, bankers , and investment firms had a...direct hand in the destruction of defined-benefit MEPFs?

Would you say they....benefitted , by eliminating large unwieldy blocks of privately-held, professionally-handled stocks and bonds under the control of a Board of Trustees answerable to a Union membership?

And,........forcing many people into tiny, little chunks of investments with no cohesive, collective power........And no guarantees, or government oversight (Let The Buyer Beware)?

Because those tiny, little investment chunks........created by Wall Street under provisions of the ERISA Act in 1974,.......are the ONLY "game" in town, once your defined-benefit pension is wrecked? Or,...at least, that's how they are....marketed to people....?

I know,........you're rolling in dough, due to your wildly successful investing......So everybody should be...celebrating this Triumph of Capitalism..........Sorry,...leave me out of this "party"...

There USED to be guarantees,....until by fiat of Congress ,..AS LOBBIED FOR by Wall Street,.....the guarantees were taken away,...and the Pension Benefit Guarantee Insurance to back up those guarantees....was de-funded to the point of crippling it's viability.......(..I use the term "Wall Street" as a euphemism for a collective bunch of bankers, investors, lobbyists, and other high-powered leeches on our banking system..)......

No one else smells a Rat?

That's why you have a Canary in the Mine........
 
And,.....The coming "explosion" in the mineshaft,...........is the savings level of 401(k) participants across the nation.

82% have nowhere near enough to...retire at age 65......

Most participants contribute at the lowest level (5%).......(....maybe because the choice is:...food for the family this week? Or, max out my 401(k) contribution?....)

All these "chickens" will come home to roost in the next 20 years..........Maybe sooner........

Every actuary in the nation is wringing his hands over these statistics......

NOBODY is doing anything about it,........except for Wall Street, et al,......collectively lowering the annuity rate from 5% to 3.5%,....in response to low unemployment rates, in order to keep employees in the workforce longer,...by moving the "goalposts" further down the road.......

I smell methane........
 
And,.....The coming "explosion" in the mineshaft,...........is the savings level of 401(k) participants across the nation.

82% have nowhere near enough to...retire at age 65......

Most participants contribute at the lowest level (5%).......(....maybe because the choice is:...food for the family this week? Or, max out my 401(k) contribution?....)

All these "chickens" will come home to roost in the next 20 years..........Maybe sooner........

Every actuary in the nation is wringing his hands over these statistics......

NOBODY is doing anything about it,........except for Wall Street, et al,......collectively lowering the annuity rate from 5% to 3.5%,....in response to low unemployment rates, in order to keep employees in the workforce longer,...by moving the "goalposts" further down the road.......

I smell methane........

And when these chickens come home........... WATCH OUT!
 
And,.....The coming "explosion" in the mineshaft,...........is the savings level of 401(k) participants across the nation.

82% have nowhere near enough to...retire at age 65......

Most participants contribute at the lowest level (5%).......(....maybe because the choice is:...food for the family this week? Or, max out my 401(k) contribution?....)

All these "chickens" will come home to roost in the next 20 years..........Maybe sooner........

Every actuary in the nation is wringing his hands over these statistics......

NOBODY is doing anything about it,........except for Wall Street, et al,......collectively lowering the annuity rate from 5% to 3.5%,....in response to low unemployment rates, in order to keep employees in the workforce longer,...by moving the "goalposts" further down the road.......

I smell methane........
Could it also be that most people would rather spend their money now rather than saving for the future? Delayed gratification is not something you see in kids and most adults. But, according to you, they should not have to or be given a choice. If most people choose to live 'high on the hog' rather than save for retirement I don't feel they (us, you and me, anyone) should be made to save for retirement. They make their bed, they should sleep in it. I have no sympathy. I have watched people take expensive vacations, live in expensive houses, drive expensive vehicles while my wife and I lived frugally, sacrificed time with our kids, skipped nice vacations, drove older vehicles that are over 15yrs old, lived in double wide trailers until we could afford a nice home and saved for retirement. I want to sleep in the bed I sacrificed for not continue to sacrifice for those people who 'deserved to drive nice vehicles, live in expensive homes and enjoy nicer vacations' than my family have ever had.
 
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