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Yellow | I hate my union,although I don't have the guts to quit!

Joe,
this debate has changes since I was on here but, to what we were debating earlier,

in a Capitalist Society such as ours you have to have goods being manufactured, minded and grown. Along with this, you need support; transportation of raw materials and finished goods, infrastructure to be able to transport, energy to manufacture, mine and/or grow and transport, etc...

Along with the manufacturing, mining and growing of goods, you need a consumer base---Every seller has to have a buyer and every buyer has to have something to buy. These are indisputable facts that I think we all can agree on.

In our society, who is the largest consumer group, does the work to make the goods, supports the largest group of employers (the small businesses) and pays by far, the largest portion of taxes to maintain our government? The average, honest, hardworking middle class family's.

Like I've said before, it's a documented fact that over the last 40 odd years our wages have stagnated and in the last 10 or so years we have seen wages and benefits slashed, while the real cost of living has steadily risen, health care being one part, at an alarming rate. On top of this, millions upon millions of jobs have been taken out of our country and shipped overseas.

Our incomes are finite, we can only work so much overtime, holidays, extra jobs, etc... The same goes for our budgets, our rent/mortgages, utility’s, car payments, gas to operate them, maintenance, food, clothing, and health care are pretty well fixed.

Ok, with this in mind, if your income doesn't keep up with inflation and/or is cut, you have to make adjustments. You can sell your house and buy a cheaper one but, at the end of the day, ya gotta have shelter. You can be more conservative with your utility's but, that’s only gona get ya so far. You can sell your vehicles and buy cheaper ones but, that’s a temp fix and ya still have to buy gas and maintain them. You can buy off brand food but even at that.... Health care....don't even get me started on that!

The above are our daily “needs” and you can only adjust them so much so, where do ya cut costs?
If you can't afford a new (American made) car to replace the old one, that costs jobs.
If you can't afford American made clothing and have to buy 3rd world made clothing, that costs jobs.
If you can't afford American made goods and have to buy 3rd world made goods, that costs jobs.
If you can't afford to take your family out to eat, bowling, to a movie, etc...that costs jobs.
Etc, etc, etc, etc.....

So where does that leave us?....In a foot race to the bottom, that's where.

You stated that in hard times, corporations cut wages, that's what they do....when in our history have they done that? The Great Depression? No, because of Unions, wages actually increased and after WWII because we had manufacturing (jobs) and a middle class that could afford to buy American made goods (consumers), we went through arguable the most prosperous period in our history!

You said that the Bakers Union (at Hostess)were fool's for standing their ground and saying enough is enough. You have stated that we that voted no on concession here at YRC are fools. Are some jobs going to be lost, unfortunately yes but, someone has to stand up and stop this war on working family's before it is to late
 
little d said:
Joe,
this debate has changes since I was on here but, to what we were debating earlier,

in a Capitalist Society such as ours...

On top of this, millions upon millions of jobs have been taken out of our country and shipped overseas.

Our incomes are finite, we can only work so much overtime, holidays, extra jobs, etc... The same goes for our budgets, our rent/mortgages, utility’s, car payments, gas to operate them, maintenance, food, clothing, and health care are pretty well fixed.

Ok, with this in mind, if your income doesn't keep up with inflation and/or is cut, you have to make adjustments... Y

The above are our daily “needs” and you can only adjust them so much so, where do ya cut costs?
If you can't afford a new (American made) car to replace the old one, that costs jobs.
If you can't afford American made clothing and have to buy 3rd world made clothing, that costs jobs.
If you can't afford American made goods and have to buy 3rd world made goods, that costs jobs.
If you can't afford to take your family out to eat, bowling, to a movie, etc...that costs jobs.
Etc, etc, etc, etc.....

So where does that leave us?....In a foot race to the bottom, that's where.

You stated that in hard times, corporations cut wages, that's what they do....when in our history have they done that? The Great Depression? No, because of Unions, wages actually increased and after WWII because we had manufacturing (jobs) and a middle class that could afford to buy American made goods (consumers), we went through arguable the most prosperous period in our history!

You said that the Bakers Union (at Hostess)were fool's for standing their ground and saying enough is enough. You have stated that we that voted no on concession here at YRC are fools. Are some jobs going to be lost, unfortunately yes but, someone has to stand up and stop this war on working family's before it is to late
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I don't recall ever calling anyone at YRC a fool. There is an inside story with the Hostess shut down. An article in the Wall St Journal was of the opinion the union president, Frank Hurt and Hostess blamed the teamsters high cost distribution system for closing. Hostess knew the brands would auction off..the bakers knew it was over and hoped a buyer would save them.

Back to your opinion it's time to stand up because you ain't gonna take it anymore. Couple things about a capitalist system. There has to be profits to support good jobs to keep middle class people middle class. YRC is just another inconsequential company in the scheme of things. If they close there wouldn't be a ripple in the economy over it. Hostess is already forgotten. Tastykake is hiring and filling the holes left by Hostess

You would have to understand the impact the financial crash '08 had on YRC, on jobs, unemployment and foreclosures. Credit dried up. Over twenty million people out of work, millions of foreclosures and many more to come. It is impossible to cry poverty in a down economy. No profit..no ball game. This ain't the public unions where economic realities have no effect on jobs. You having a prob with the high cost of living. Want a new car? What else?
 
Stoney said:
Ya, so? Just more crybabies who don't what a subsidy is. And are pissed off that high speed rail isn't getting any money.




Because I don't care what they do with their jets and such. Unless its illegal, I don't care. And your a lying again, another baseless claims."I support the working class and you support the wealthy" "You believe in tax breaks to the wealthy and big corporations". Do you read anything I type? Where do you get this crap from? I support the working class too, I just believe in low to no taxes is what helps the working class the best. You put that "SUPPORT THE WEALTHY" stuff. Again, I know corporations pass the tax on to the consumer, so why tax em?
I also know that after every major tax cut, revenue to the federal government went up. Why? Because more jobs were created.

The stagnate wages. Well that goes back to government spending and inflation. Reduce spending and borrowing by the Feds, reduce taxes and some regulations and watch wages go up. Right now the supply and demand is on the side of employers, so they can and should pay a lower wage. Get the economy rolling again, and the supply and demand switches to the employees favor again.

Question do you support raising the minimum wage?
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I do support raising the minimum wage. To what amount is debatable. The stimulas was given by two presidents,but I don't remember any great amount of jobs produced by it.
 
Stoney said:
I already told you, go back and read you idiot! Yes I just insulted you, because I already stated the reason. Pilot asked that question of me, I answered him. You saw the question because you "LIKED" the post.

You life must suck, because you call it a meager existence. Changing your tune again?

What do I consider rich? If your happy with your life. Its all about the $$$$$ with you.
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My stance has never changed,spread the wealth.Companies pay substandard wages today because they can. We have guy's like you on here who work for A living praising these b-stards for scr-wing the worker and having the b-lls to call people marxist and (⊙▃⊙)s for standing up against them. Did you say idiot?
 
jimmy g said:
Why would I care? Is it not their jet, their credit card, or their car? They would pay tax like you on their own purchases.

Is your EVERY thought jealousy??????? It certainly appears so.
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It's not jealousy it's about paying their fair share. You made the comment about all the wealthy giving everything they own would only run the govt for A few days or month or whatever. Your point being don't raise their taxes,if that's the case why make me pay anything? My net wealth would run the govt for about 3 seconds,they don't need those peanuts.You also said you don't care it's not their car jet or card, so that's A loss of tax revenue these guy's would pay if everything was on their dime. That philosophy is just proof of another tax break for the wealthy.
 
jimmy g said:
This is about the sixth time youve redefined your own post???? YOU compared bargaining rights to free speech and gun ownership; no one else. YOU inferred they were the same rights, which are Constitutional.

Why keep bringing it up, Charlie Sheen? (WINNING!!!!!) :biglaugh:
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That's Stoneys words, I didnt write that!
 
Joe the plumber said:
Some how some way I'm gonna find you! Some how some way I'm gonna getch you! getch you! getch you! Some how some way I'm gonna turn your lights out!
Zeal.gif
ka-pow!!

vulcan.gif
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Keep trying!
 
azzman said:
My stance has never changed,spread the wealth.Companies pay substandard wages today because they can. We have guy's like you on here who work for A living praising these b-stards for scr-wing the worker and having the b-lls to call people marxist and (⊙▃⊙)s for standing up against them. Did you say idiot?
Click to expand...

I have a question? Who decides what is "sub-standard" or "standard" wages? You, me, somebody else? Exactly what is an appropriate wage for any particular job? I learned a long time ago that a job is only worth what someone will accept for doing that job. That's reality.
 
jimmy g said:
I am not high and mighty. I try to provide the best I can with the skills God gave me. I've owned my own companies, I've driven trucks, I've managed companies, I've worked union jobs, and non-uinion jobs. We all work for the wage and working conditions that we voluntarily agreed to, or we leave and move on. When Yellow laid me off/ Roadway called me back to a merger under wage concessions, I resigned and moved on. I believed that I could do better. I do nothing out of jealousy, only Faith that God will lead me to HIS Plan for me.

If things are so bad for YOU, why do you stay and complain? Why don't you go make your own future better??????
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Your not high and mighty,the companies and wealthy are. I've never said things were bad for me.
 
Joe the plumber said:
I don't recall ever calling anyone at YRC a fool. There is an inside story with the Hostess shut down. An article in the Wall St Journal was of the opinion the union president, Frank Hurt and Hostess blamed the teamsters high cost distribution system for closing. Hostess knew the brands would auction off..the bakers knew it was over and hoped a buyer would save them.

Back to your opinion it's time to stand up because you ain't gonna take it anymore. Couple things about a capitalist system. There has to be profits to support good jobs to keep middle class people middle class. YRC is just another inconsequential company in the scheme of things. If they close there wouldn't be a ripple in the economy over it. Hostess is already forgotten. Tastykake is hiring and filling the holes left by Hostess

You would have to understand the impact the financial crash '08 had on YRC, on jobs, unemployment and foreclosures. Credit dried up. Over twenty million people out of work, millions of foreclosures and many more to come. It is impossible to cry poverty in a down economy. No profit..no ball game. This ain't the public unions where economic realities have no effect on jobs. You having a prob with the high cost of living. Want a new car? What else?
Click to expand...
I noticed A couple of months ago little debbie was selling fruit pies for $.75 apiece,now they cost $1.00. It looks like they are gonna help fill those holes too. It's not union labor,it's greed.
 
Triplex said:
I have a question? Who decides what is "sub-standard" or "standard" wages? You, me, somebody else? Exactly what is an appropriate wage for any particular job? I learned a long time ago that a job is only worth what someone will accept for doing that job. That's reality.
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Triple we need more mexicans so the companies can get somebody to accept the job for less.
 
jimmy g said:
I do think regulating companies is bad! I'm a competitive guy. I like lower prices.


Hoffa (Sr) was in the 50s-70s. Prior to 1980, Congress regulated Trucking, making it virtually impossible to lose money (although Yellow Freight managed to do so, even then.)
There were union trucking companies on every street corner. If you got fired one place, you could walk half a block and get hired by another Teamster Company the same day. But it was unrealistic for pricing. Unions wanted a raise- no problem; all the Union Outfits simply raised prices and the customer had no choice but to pay it. There wasn't as much competition. Just like going to buy a car and you had to pay whatever the dealer demanded, no haggling, no deals. Every car on all the city's lots cost the same, and you Had to pay it......

Today, companies struggle just to survive. We have to compete, and adjust, or the Teamsters will go the way of the dinosaur.
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I think that most of us a Competitive in nature.....one reason that most enjoy sports so much......Most people that I have known in the Industry,...including some in Management, over the years have noted, that the Trucking Industry basically was never as great as it was prior to Deregulation....and to your point regarding the time period... the 50's through the 70's,... Early 70's more so than the mid part of the decade,....Yes it was a different place in time than now...but the way you described how it was then,...and I recall those things to..., I look back at that time with fond memories of the apex of Union LTL Trucking....Wouldn't it be nice if things were that good today? We wouldn't be concerned about whether or not your pension was "safe"...or if you could get another job.....The Companies made money and so did the Employees....Good paying jobs...You say not much competition...with all those Companies vying for drivers it sounds like a lot of competition......Compare that to today's deregulated Trucking Industry....indeed quite a contrast....Many agree that the regulated Industry was much better for us than the current, dog eat dog, as it were, world we have now....
As far as "unrealistic pricing" goes....We still have that....consider what wages are today and compare that to what prices are and I think most would agree that it would be considered "Unrealistic"... We still have the same model of pricing...Business raise prices....consumers pay...not much choice. And this is in the current mostly non Union environment as contrasted to the time frame you sited... .Your example of a car purchase is really not all that different than back then..Sure you can "haggle"...but there is only so much "room" to do so....and most vehicles are similarly priced pretty much everywhere...not much in the way of what could be considered a real "deal"....Thanks for bringing us on a "trip down memory lane"

"Today, companies struggle just to survive. We have to compete, and adjust, or the Teamsters will go the way of the dinosaur"

I too, think that today many Companies to struggle to survive..But there are some that are also Extremely profitable as well....but yes...they have to compete....and adjust to changing markets and demographics...and I do find agreement in that the Teamsters Union,...and Unions in general, also have to adapt or will continue to shrink.....and I don't see that as a positive for Labor in this Country...
 
Stoney said:
I said company? I posted a lot, I cant remember the post you are referring, show me, and maybe I can clarify.
Do the roads generate a profit? nope! But the HYW system was a demand that needed to meant. That was proper government, becuase it involved construction over state lines, and allowed commerce to expand much more rapidly.
And Obama tried spending on infrastructure to stimulate the economy, it failed. There's your proof government doesn't create wealth.


That is only part of the reason Unions were formed....They also helped to create, to the degree possible, a safer work environment...a process to seek redress with their employers...i.e. the grievance procedure...also they helped insure that people were not arbitrary separated from employment on a managers whim....work rules that benefited employees....lunch breaks...and other breaks during the course of a shift.......among other things...but I'm sure you get the drift...since your a Union man...
It is those things that make public sector Unions valuable in the workplace..... If those are conflicts of interests in your mind...I wonder if things like that are somehow not in your interests...and why would you seek to take that, which you enjoy, and deny it to others? ...


Sure unions helped create many of the labor laws we have today. They served a valuable purpose in history. Laws that government jobs must follow. But they still shouldn't be allowed in the public sector.
The conflict of interest arises in negotiations, and the wages and benefits, not work environment. See politicians see the tax pay as having unlimited funds. And are all to willing to sell the tax payer down the river to giver the unions what ever they want, because they know if they do, they will receive union votes and union money. So the negotiations are way to one sided.
A private business negotiates a bad contract, the business goes out of business. The government negotiates a bad contract, they just raise taxes on the private sector. Which hurts the private sector.

If Government spending was spent on the USA...and not having to being the worlds "policeman" and having Dominance in the World...and all the money that it entails there would be plenty of money to take care of our own citizens in the manner befitting a nation of wealth...and if that were to be the case, I doubt there would be any such debate on the matter...

It's sad that we must police the world sort of speak, but if we don't, days like 9/11 would be much more common. BTW, National Security is the Federal governments number job. We should never trade the money we spend on national security for spending on the people.
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"Do the roads generate a profit? nope! But the HYW system was a demand that needed to meant. That was proper government, becuase it involved construction over state lines, and allowed commerce to expand much more rapidly."


Did I say "roads generate a profit?" No....I stated...."Roads and other infrastructure that was built by Government money? Those things had nothing to do with the ability for Business to generate wealth?.. Note how the question is asking for your thought on Roads and other infrastructure aiding the ability for a Company to generate revenue.... Wouldn't it be much harder, and in some cases almost impossible, for a business to make money if Roads and such were not available to them...Think about that for a minute....Again that IS an example of government spending that contributes to Business being able to produce revenue...
Moreover, you state that it allowed Commerce to expand more rapidly....another Example OF Government spending contributing to the economic wealth of the Country..Thanks for re-enforcing my point....

" Laws that government jobs must follow. But they still shouldn't be allowed in the public sector.
The conflict of interest arises in negotiations, and the wages and benefits, not work environment. See politicians see the tax pay as having unlimited funds. And are all to willing to sell the tax payer down the river to giver the unions what ever they want, because they know if they do, they will receive union votes and union money."

"laws that government jobs must follow"....not sure of what you mean by that statement......Moving on.....With all the things I listed in my post...that were not related to wage or benefit issues and you still think that Public servants should not have the same job protections that you enjoy as a Union member...that's astonishing... I said...."The part of wages and benefits being on the taxpayer is a matter of debate. and I can't say that they don't have a somewhat legitimate point."... Yes the pay issue is a somewhat legitimate issue...I don't see Politicians just giving public Union workers anything because money is no object....It's the opposite of that in what I see...and you say its because of the Union vote....There is far more funds in catering to large Corporations and their Politically connected lobbyists than the Union vote and money....If negotiations were to be one sided..it be to that side.....Public Service workers are taking concessions to....they are not riding high on the weak economy anymore than many Private sector employees are..

"It's sad that we must police the world sort of speak, but if we don't, days like 9/11 would be much more common. BTW, National Security is the Federal governments number job. We should never trade the money we spend on national security for spending on the people."

Did it ever occur to you that if we weren't inserting our "nose" in other countries affairs, that perhaps, other Counties might not dislike us to the point that drives them, as well as groups of "terrorist" to inflict damage and causalities on us.... what would the world be like if we just looked after ourselves and let other Countries just handle their own affairs....? Perhaps that would be a way to avoid such horrors that occurred on 9/11/2001....among others.....That would really reduce the amount of Military spending that could be redirected to helping our citizens.....and before you get all puffed up with indignation about that....Let me be clear...I'm not suggesting that we don't have the ability to defend the Country.....ok? Understand that point...We can be our own "policeman" much cheaper than being the "Worlds Policeman".....
 
Triplex said:
I have a question? Who decides what is "sub-standard" or "standard" wages? You, me, somebody else? Exactly what is an appropriate wage for any particular job? I learned a long time ago that a job is only worth what someone will accept for doing that job. That's reality.
Click to expand...

What ever the market will bare. If there is a demand for a product or service it will sell at a good price. Wages and benefits fluctuate depending on my favorite word..market realities. Millions out of work tend to put downward pressure on wages..the old supply and demand thing
 
pilot87 said:
I think that most of us a Competitive in nature.....one reason that most enjoy sports so much......Most people that I have known in the Industry,...including some in Management, over the years have noted, that the Trucking Industry basically was never as great as it was prior to Deregulation....and to your point regarding the time period... the 50's through the 70's,... Early 70's more so than the mid part of the decade,....Yes it was a different place in time than now...but the way you described how it was then,...and I recall those things to..., I look back at that time with fond memories of the apex of Union LTL Trucking....Wouldn't it be nice if things were that good today? We wouldn't be concerned about whether or not your pension was "safe"...or if you could get another job.....The Companies made money and so did the Employees....Good paying jobs...You say not much competition...with all those Companies vying for drivers it sounds like a lot of competition......Compare that to today's deregulated Trucking Industry....indeed quite a contrast....Many agree that the regulated Industry was much better for us than the current, dog eat dog, as it were, world we have now....
As far as "unrealistic pricing" goes....We still have that....consider what wages are today and compare that to what prices are and I think most would agree that it would be considered "Unrealistic"... We still have the same model of pricing...Business raise prices....consumers pay...not much choice. And this is in the current mostly non Union environment as contrasted to the time frame you sited... .Your example of a car purchase is really not all that different than back then..Sure you can "haggle"...but there is only so much "room" to do so....and most vehicles are similarly priced pretty much everywhere...not much in the way of what could be considered a real "deal"....Thanks for bringing us on a "trip down memory lane"

"Today, companies struggle just to survive. We have to compete, and adjust, or the Teamsters will go the way of the dinosaur"

I too, think that today many Companies to struggle to survive..But there are some that are also Extremely profitable as well....but yes...they have to compete....and adjust to changing markets and demographics...and I do find agreement in that the Teamsters Union,...and Unions in general, also have to adapt or will continue to shrink.....and I don't see that as a positive for Labor in this Country...
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Not only were the 50s-70s the best years to be a teamster driver they were the best years to be most anything in the USA. Dad worked, mom took care of the home and children (often 5 or 6 of them), there were two fairly new cars in the driveway, enjoyable vacations were had by the family as a whole, many shore or mountain houses were owned and we learned that we couldn't just leave the keys in the cars anymore. Household appliances and TVs improved and life in general just got better during that entire period. Now we are going backwards and it is not feeling so good for most of us. How much more will we give up before we take action? What will that action be?
 
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