R&L | Just woundering if this sounds racial

Bush started a dumba$$ war he couldn't finish...and spent alot of taxpayer money doing it...That will be his legacy..I didn't vote for him either time..
But what Oblablah is doing now will literally destroy this country if we are not careful...His "spendulus" is doing very little, if anything, to create any jobs or stimulate the economy...And it won't in the future either..Too much junk and waste in it..I have said before, I don't blame him, he didn't read it before signing it...If he was going to spend 780 billion, he should have done it in the form of tax breaks to businesses for creating jobs and not deporting jobs...America prospers when Americans spend, not the government..But we will all be spending soon...in the form of much higher taxes created by this government when it comes time to pay the pork bill...You'll all be crying then and asking what happened..

You make some really good points. Specifically about getting us into a war we can't finish. At the same time, Bush was cutting taxes. Cutting revenue and increasing expenditures is a bad idea no matter who you are. Now, I do take issue with your statement that Obama supports deporting jobs. He actually supports American job growth more than any other President in recent memory. I will give you three examples.

1. The GM bailout. When you extrapolate the number of jobs this involves it goes into the millions. As shown in this graphic GM had over 13000 dealerships in the US:

Detroit's move to cut dealers is long overdue | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

I heard on the radio that each dealer has around 50 staff on average including mechanics, accounting, sales, admin, etc. That is about 700,000 jobs minimum if you save them all. GM has announced it will close nearly 3000 at this point. You still saved half a million American jobs. Add the vast supplier network, manufacturers, corporate staff, and all of the same for Chrysler, and this amounts to well over a few million jobs saved.

2. NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement). Obama has been about the only person I have heard calling for a renegotiation of NAFTA:

Organizing for America | BarackObama.com

NAFTA is a raw deal for the American worker because it allows them to ship jobs to Canada or Mexico without consequence. I was down in a plant in Mexico where they manufactured radios and dash units. Workers were paid 2 bucks an hour. The manager told me these jobs would have started at 18-22 in the US. Bush and even Clinton, who championed the agreement, were both staunch supporters. Obama is not saying lets get rid of it, he is saying lets make it more fair for the American worker. Sounds good to me.

3. Tax reform relating to large international companies:

Obama clarifies corporate crackdown proposals - May. 4, 2009

Basically US companies who make money overseas don't have to pay US taxes if they reinvest in the overseas operations. This encourages deportation of US jobs and expansion overseas. The naysayers argue that companies will just move operations overseas permanently. Please, this is a ridiculous notion. Especially when fuel continues to rise and shipping becomes more and more impractical again.

Your post was spoken like a true capitalist, and I agree with trying to give incentives to create jobs, but unfortunately all our government knows how to do is spend their way out. It will probably work, and we are already seeing signs that it is, but you are right about having huge debts to pay.
 
Hey Getpaid,

What the hell would you think of FDR during the Great Depression if you think Obama is the Socialist. Your Good Ole Boy Georgey put us in a world of hurt here, you think turning things around from that debt are easy? Maybe you will get your SSI benefits some day, but I am way too young to event hink about receiving them, as George, Bill, George, Ronnie, Jimmie etc etc etc basically ingnored the call to reform this. Sure GW wanted to fix it, for the rich. Cause those guys need their $2000 a month. But as soon as 9/11 came he found his legacy. And yes I was in NYC during the attacks. Most if not all New Yorkers wanted nothing to do with Iraq. Now we have someone looking to fix everythign the last president screwed up and you call him a communist, nice! I wonder why so many trucking companies are going out of business? Oh yeah we are are head first in a Depression, yeah I said it! And Georgey caused it himself. So, any President whether it be Obama or McCain I would have supported to get out us out of the mess we are in now, but you just want to bash him. Good for you.

BTW, I call all males Brother no matter what their race, cread or nationality.

Man, I don't think I have ever seen such a fundamental misunderstanding of why Socialist Insecurity is screwed outside of the moron.org crowd...
It is a doomed Ponzi scheme, the worst scam ever foisted on the American public. It a wealth redistribution plan that keeps families from ever accumulating real wealth. You pay in, you die, uncle obama keeps your money.Private investment, your kids get to keep it, at least until they reinstitute the death tax... See the difference?
Bush's plan was only wrong in that it did not go anywhere near far enough. SS is UNSUSTAINABLE, one youngster will soon be paying for two guys like me retirement, yet you think it needs to be saved? thanks son...
And one mor question, you said in reference to the rich and thier receiving SS "for the rich. Cause those guys need their $2000 a month" Now why would you deny people no matter how rich their benefits? They likely paid MORE into it than you, would you rob them with a gun, or do you expect the Federal Government to do it for you? "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" sound familar?
 
You make some really good points. Specifically about getting us into a war we can't finish. At the same time, Bush was cutting taxes. Cutting revenue and increasing expenditures is a bad idea no matter who you are.

BUUZZZZZ Incorrect assumption, Tax revenue INCREASED after the tax cuts, by the way pulling us out of the recession that started under Clinton... And we WILL finish this war, we will win it, inspite of the treasoncrats, unlike Nam...

And in the way of fixing your revisionist history,,,
Deficits were dropping until nasty pulloutski and her gang got control of Congress in 2006.
Now a quick civics lesson...
Which Government branch controls the purse strings...? hint, it his NOT the Executive.



Now, I do take issue with your statement that Obama supports deporting jobs. He actually supports American job growth more than any other President in recent memory. I will give you three examples.

1. The GM bailout. When you extrapolate the number of jobs this involves it goes into the millions. As shown in this graphic GM had over 13000 dealerships in the US:

Detroit's move to cut dealers is long overdue | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

I heard on the radio that each dealer has around 50 staff on average including mechanics, accounting, sales, admin, etc. That is about 700,000 jobs minimum if you save them all. GM has announced it will close nearly 3000 at this point. You still saved half a million American jobs. Add the vast supplier network, manufacturers, corporate staff, and all of the same for Chrysler, and this amounts to well over a few million jobs saved.
Has the fact Hussien O has saddled those workers and their kids and grandkids with unimaginable debt, we will spend twice as much as we take in this year as a country, and will in fact burden this nation for generations occured to you? Is the fact the US government will own 72% of Government Motors sunk in? By the way, Government ownership of Private business is called socialism, not a good thing. Furthermore, the government is dictating what products private business produces, that is called Marxism. Again, not a good thing.




2. NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement). Obama has been about the only person I have heard calling for a renegotiation of NAFTA:

Organizing for America | BarackObama.com

NAFTA is a raw deal for the American worker because it allows them to ship jobs to Canada or Mexico without consequence. I was down in a plant in Mexico where they manufactured radios and dash units. Workers were paid 2 bucks an hour. The manager told me these jobs would have started at 18-22 in the US. Bush and even Clinton, who championed the agreement, were both staunch supporters. Obama is not saying lets get rid of it, he is saying lets make it more fair for the American worker. Sounds good to me.

3. Tax reform relating to large international companies:

Obama clarifies corporate crackdown proposals - May. 4, 2009

Basically US companies who make money overseas don't have to pay US taxes if they reinvest in the overseas operations. This encourages deportation of US jobs and expansion overseas. The naysayers argue that companies will just move operations overseas permanently. Please, this is a ridiculous notion. Especially when fuel continues to rise and shipping becomes more and more impractical again.

Your post was spoken like a true capitalist, and I agree with trying to give incentives to create jobs, but unfortunately all our government knows how to do is spend their way out. It will probably work, and we are already seeing signs that it is, but you are right about having huge debts to pay.

You do understand uncontroled government spending did NOT bring us out of the last depression, WW2 did.
 
I guess that you think that GM,Chrysler exec's are the reason they are shuttin down and going bankrupt now? All the while Toyota,Honda,Kia,BMW,Hyundai,and Nissan plants are all up and running and doing good. What is the major difference between them,the employees. I can't say it here,but you know what it is. Ask yourself what happened to all the money that WE the tax payer has put into GM and Chrysler in the past few months. We have put BILLIONS into them and they are still going bankrupt,where did OUR money go?
 
ⓇⒶⒸⒾⓈⓉ is just a fancy word to remind you that our judicial system will award money for anything. i should have sued years ago when i was called a cracker.

Wonder what "redneck" would have paid had we went for it along about the turning point toward all this?

Hey, "some" speak of reparations. We may still have a shot.
 
just stop hatin on obama face it hes president god just get over it already and accept for being a human not a black president that man is smart and it is really not that deep my man.
 
How do you find the time for such a long winded post? I am getting ready to go to work,so let me make this short. I do not think that obama will get to round ups and mass murder,we have too many guns in this country. Something that all those other countries didn't have. I can tell that you have a socialist leaning,so whatever I say will never make sense to you. Us working people see what is happening and we don't like it. If I have the time I will try to debate you point by point in a few days,but it's suposed to a nice weekend and I don't want to waist it on here trying to straighten you out. Only time will open your eyes,I see it all around me now. People that I use to debate issues with now have nothing to say. The sad part is that they had to experience his policies to understand how it would effect them. If they haven't effected you then you are in much better standing that the rest of us. March to your own drum,but don't try to beat on mine.
 
BUUZZZZZ Incorrect assumption, Tax revenue INCREASED after the tax cuts, by the way pulling us out of the recession that started under Clinton... And we WILL finish this war, we will win it, inspite of the treasoncrats, unlike Nam...

And in the way of fixing your revisionist history,,,
Deficits were dropping until nasty pulloutski and her gang got control of Congress in 2006.
Now a quick civics lesson...
Which Government branch controls the purse strings...? hint, it his NOT the Executive.




Has the fact Hussien O has saddled those workers and their kids and grandkids with unimaginable debt, we will spend twice as much as we take in this year as a country, and will in fact burden this nation for generations occured to you? Is the fact the US government will own 72% of Government Motors sunk in? By the way, Government ownership of Private business is called socialism, not a good thing. Furthermore, the government is dictating what products private business produces, that is called Marxism. Again, not a good thing.






You do understand uncontroled government spending did NOT bring us out of the last depression, WW2 did.

BZZZZZZZZZZ we have another leftlanecruiser on the boards. Why don't you actually do some research before you start spitting ignorant right wing propaganda around. You say tax revenue increased after the tax increases? Check the facts:

Federal Government Revenues Have More Than Tripled Since 1965

Bush took office in 2000 and immedeatly inacted tax cuts right? Why did total revenue fall by HALF A TRILLION over the next 3-4 years? It was 06-07 before revenue even got back to the 00 level, which is significant considering the GDP showed average growth over that same period:

United States GDP Growth Rate

This means that if you extrapolate that effect into the equation, we never reached the 2000 level of income to GDP again because of the current recession. It was a nice try, but you are way out of your league here. Unlike you and people like LLC, my information is backed up by facts.

The deficit was shrinking until 06? Wrong again. Check the facts:

U.S. National Debt Graph: Since Great Depression

In the past 30 years the fact is the deficit has only shown steady growth during republican regimes. Right now Obama got dealt an awful hand, so I expect it to be going up. Fact is, it was going up during the entire Bush run. As I originally noted factually, he was spending more and bringing in less. You and Rush Windbag can refuse to believe that all you want, but facts are facts.

One more things. You say WW2 brought us out of the Great Depression right? Guess what, I agree!! But once again you have proven yourself to be lacking in understanding the concepts here. Wars are government spending. Who funds them? Private companies?

Big Bailouts, Bigger Bucks | The Big Picture

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, here is a good snippet:

"The only single American event in history that even comes close to matching the cost of the credit crisis is World War II: Original Cost: $288 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $3.6 trillion"

So I guess the 3.6 trillion spent (adjusted for inflation) by the US government during WW2 had nothing to do with us getting out of the GD? Feel free to reply, but next time please check your facts.
 
I guess that you think that GM,Chrysler exec's are the reason they are shuttin down and going bankrupt now? All the while Toyota,Honda,Kia,BMW,Hyundai,and Nissan plants are all up and running and doing good. What is the major difference between them,the employees. I can't say it here,but you know what it is. Ask yourself what happened to all the money that WE the tax payer has put into GM and Chrysler in the past few months. We have put BILLIONS into them and they are still going bankrupt,where did OUR money go?

You really don't get it do you? Execs are one of the primary reasons these companies are bankrupt. I am not discounting the fault of the entity that you referenced, but consider the business practices:

Detroit's move to cut dealers is long overdue | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

What does page 2 of this article tell you? I am sorry, that was a stupid question. I will explain because you are incapable of conceptualizing business concepts on a intelligent level. It means the average Toyota dealer moves 7.5 times more product than a GM dealer. Why? Because Toyota EXECUTIVES limited the amount of franchises, thereby creating more value for the brand. You see, for someone like yourself it may seem like a great idea to have 13,000 plus dealers compared to 1400 for Toyota. The fact is, the market was too saturated creating price wars. Each dealership was cannibalizing the others. Have you ever heard about how a Cadillac looses 20% the minute you drive it off the lot? Not because it is a bad car, it is because dealers are in price wars and the prior year models are nearly liquidated for all intensive purposes. It is simple supply and demand economics my friend. More product=more supply=lower prices. If oil were pouring out of the ground everywhere the price would be low because supply is high. Actually our money went into owning a 70+% stake. When the company turns around we will start making a profit on that stake. You mentioned the banks before, and I proved you completely wrong about them being nationalized. The fact is, they are already turing around and we are making a profit on the stock warrants we got in exchange for the TARP funds.

One final point, and another fault of the execs, is product development. Toyota (Prius, Corolla, Yaris), Honda (Civic, Insight, Fit), etc had the foresight to see fuel prices going up and already had popular fuel efficient models ready to hit the street. You can't just develop a car overnight. The people in Detroit didn't start moving until gas was 3 bucks a gallon and that was too late. 4 bucks a gallon and they are still throwing Escalades and Tahoes at us. Goes back to poor environmental scanning (advance business concept that you may be unaware of), SWOT analysis (another), etc. These fall on the execs, not the line workers.

All of that being said, there were other factors at play. Yes they were at a cost disadvantage because of the entity you mentioned, but to say it is completely their fault is ludicrous.
 
How do you find the time for such a long winded post? I am getting ready to go to work,so let me make this short. I do not think that obama will get to round ups and mass murder,we have too many guns in this country. Something that all those other countries didn't have. I can tell that you have a socialist leaning,so whatever I say will never make sense to you. Us working people see what is happening and we don't like it. If I have the time I will try to debate you point by point in a few days,but it's suposed to a nice weekend and I don't want to waist it on here trying to straighten you out. Only time will open your eyes,I see it all around me now. People that I use to debate issues with now have nothing to say. The sad part is that they had to experience his policies to understand how it would effect them. If they haven't effected you then you are in much better standing that the rest of us. March to your own drum,but don't try to beat on mine.

I enjoy debates so it really takes me no time to whip these posts together. I am up on all of the facts and issues so I know when someone is trying to BS their way through a conversation. To this point I have seen 3 posts from you, and not a single assertion made has been backed by facts. Now you are suggesting the ONLY reason Obama is not going to start up concentration camps and start euthanizing people is because there are too many guns on the street? You should get out of the front office and on to the late night comedy circuit. What exactly is happening? Please enlighten me since I am not a "working person". Everything you have said has been baseless and proven wrong by me. I have posted links to factual evidence rebutting every single point you have made. This is the best thing you can come up with? I am not trying to beat on your drum. Post actual facts, or make intelligent contributions, and I promise you I will have nothing to say.
 
Alright Guys , I'm only going to say this once and then the Infractions will Fly....Attack the post , not the poster....also this is not the polotics forum so drop that talk now or take it to the proper forum...I am not going to Quote all the rules but I suggest everyone read and understand them before you post again.
 
BZZZZZZZZZZ we have another leftlanecruiser on the boards. Why don't you actually do some research before you start spitting ignorant right wing propaganda around. You say tax revenue increased after the tax increases? Check the facts:

Federal Government Revenues Have More Than Tripled Since 1965

Bush took office in 2000 and immedeatly inacted tax cuts right? Why did total revenue fall by HALF A TRILLION over the next 3-4 years? It was 06-07 before revenue even got back to the 00 level, which is significant considering the GDP showed average growth over that same period:

United States GDP Growth Rate

This means that if you extrapolate that effect into the equation, we never reached the 2000 level of income to GDP again because of the current recession. It was a nice try, but you are way out of your league here. Unlike you and people like LLC, my information is backed up by facts.

The deficit was shrinking until 06? Wrong again. Check the facts:

U.S. National Debt Graph: Since Great Depression

In the past 30 years the fact is the deficit has only shown steady growth during republican regimes. Right now Obama got dealt an awful hand, so I expect it to be going up. Fact is, it was going up during the entire Bush run. As I originally noted factually, he was spending more and bringing in less. You and Rush Windbag can refuse to believe that all you want, but facts are facts.

One more things. You say WW2 brought us out of the Great Depression right? Guess what, I agree!! But once again you have proven yourself to be lacking in understanding the concepts here. Wars are government spending. Who funds them? Private companies?

Big Bailouts, Bigger Bucks | The Big Picture

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, here is a good snippet:

"The only single American event in history that even comes close to matching the cost of the credit crisis is World War II: Original Cost: $288 billion, Inflation Adjusted Cost: $3.6 trillion"

So I guess the 3.6 trillion spent (adjusted for inflation) by the US government during WW2 had nothing to do with us getting out of the GD? Feel free to reply, but next time please check your facts.


I am clear on the facts... Your socialist drivel is pure Orwell

Ten Myths About the Bush Tax Cuts—and the Facts

Myth #1: Tax revenues remain low.
Fact: Tax revenues are above the historical average, even after the tax cuts.

Tax revenues in 2006 were 18.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), which is actually above the 20-year, 40-year, and 60-year historical aver­ages.[1] The inflation-adjusted 20 percent tax revenue increase between 2004 and 2006 represents the largest two-year revenue surge since 1965–1967.[2] Claims that Americans are undertaxed by historical standards are patently false.

Some critics of President George W. Bush's tax policies concede that tax revenues exceed the his­torical average yet assert that revenues are histori­cally low for economies in the fourth year of an expansion. Setting aside that some of these tax pol­icies are partly responsible for that economic expan­sion, the numbers simply do not support this claim. Comparing tax revenues in the fourth fiscal year after the end of each of the past three recessions shows nearly equal tax revenues of:

18.4 percent of GDP in 1987,
18.5 percent of GDP in 1995, and
18.4 percent of GDP in 2006.[3]
While revenues as a percentage of GDP have not fully returned to pre-recession levels (20.9 percent in 2000), it is now clear that the pre-recession level was a major historical anomaly caused by a tempo­rary stock market bubble.

Myth #2: The Bush tax cuts substantially reduced 2006 revenues and expanded the budget deficit.
Fact: Nearly all of the 2006 budget deficit resulted from additional spending above the baseline.

Critics tirelessly contend that America's swing from budget surpluses in 1998–2001 to a $247 bil­lion budget deficit in 2006 resulted chiefly from the "irresponsible" Bush tax cuts. This argument ignores the historic spending increases that pushed federal spending up from 18.5 percent of GDP in 2001 to 20.2 percent in 2006.[4]

The best way to measure the swing from surplus to deficit is by comparing the pre–tax cut budget baseline of the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) with what actually happened. While the January 2000 baseline projected a 2006 budget surplus of $325 billion, the final 2006 numbers showed a $247 billion deficit—a net drop of $572 billion. This drop occurred because spending was $514 bil­lion above projected levels, and revenues were $58 billion below (even after $188 billion in tax cuts). In other words, 90 percent of the swing from surplus to deficit resulted from higher-than-projected spending, and only 10 percent resulted from lower-than-projected revenues.
Furthermore, tax revenues in 2006 were actually above the levels projected before the 2003 tax cuts. Immediately before the 2003 tax cuts, the CBO pro­jected a 2006 budget deficit of $57 billion, yet the final 2006 budget deficit was $247 billion. The $190 billion deficit increase resulted from federal spend­ing that was $237 billion more than projected. Rev­enues were actually $47 billion above the projection, even after $75 billion in tax cuts enacted after the baseline was calculated.[6] By that standard, new spending was responsible for 125 percent of the higher 2006 budget deficit, and expanding revenues actually offset 25 percent of the new spending.

The 2006 tax revenues were not substantially far from levels projected before the Bush tax cuts. Despite estimates that the tax cuts would reduce 2006 revenues by $188 billion, they came in just $58 billion below the pre–tax cut revenue level pro­jected in January 2000.[7]

The difference is even more dramatic with the pro-growth 2003 tax cuts. The CBO calculated that the post-March 2003 tax cuts would lower 2006 revenues by $75 billion, yet 2006 revenues came in $47 billion above the pre–tax cut baseline released in March 2003. This is not a coincidence. Tax cuts clearly played a significant role in the economy's performing better than expected and recovering much of the lost revenue.

Myth #3: Supply-side economics assumes that all tax cuts immediately pay for themselves.
Fact: It assumes replenishment of some but not necessarily all lost revenues.


Myth #4: Capital gains tax cuts do not pay for themselves.
Fact: Capital gains tax revenues doubled following the 2003 tax cut.


As previously stated, whether a tax cut pays for itself depends on how much people alter their behavior in response to the policy. Investors have been shown to be the most sensitive to tax pol­icy, because capital gains tax cuts encourage enough new investment to more than offset the lower tax rate.

In 2003, capital gains tax rates were reduced from 20 percent and 10 percent (depending on income) to 15 percent and 5 percent. Rather than expand by 36 percent from the current $50 billion level to $68 billion in 2006 as the CBO projected before the tax cut, capital gains revenues more than doubled to $103 billion

Myth #5: The Bush tax cuts are to blame for the projected long-term budget deficits.
Fact: Projections show that entitlement costs will dwarf the projected large revenue increases.
The unsustainability of America's long-term bud­get path is well known. However, a common mis­perception blames the massive future budget deficits on the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. In reality, revenues will continue to increase above the histor­ical average yet be dwarfed by historic entitlement spending increases

For the past half-century, tax revenues have gen­erally stayed within 1 percentage point of 18 per­cent of GDP. The CBO projects that, even if all 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are made permanent, revenues will stillincrease from 18.4 percent of GDP today to 22.8 percent by 2050, not counting any feedback revenues from their positive economic impact. It is projected that repealing the Bush tax cuts would nudge 2050 revenues up to 23.7 percent of GDP, not counting any revenue losses from the negative economic impact of the tax hikes.[11] In effect, the Bush tax cut debate is whether revenues should increase by 4.4 percent or 5.3 percent of GDP.

Spending has remained around 20 percent of GDP for the past half-century. However, the coming retirement of the baby boomers will increase Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spending by a combined 10.5 percent of GDP. Assuming that this causes large budget deficits and increased net spending on interest, federal spending could surge to 38 percent of GDP and possibly much higher.

Overall, revenues are projected to increase from 18 percent of GDP to almost 23 percent. Spending is projected to increase from 20 percent of GDP to at least 38 percent. Even repealing all of the 2001 and 2003 cuts would merely shave the projected budget deficit of 15 percent of GDP by less than 1 percentage point, and that assumes no negative feedback from raising taxes. Clearly, the French-style spending increases, not tax policy, are the problem. Lawmakers should focus on getting entitlements under control.





Myth #6: Raising tax rates is the best way to raise revenue.
Fact: Tax revenues correlate with economic growth, not tax rates.

Myth #7: Reversing the upper-income tax cuts would raise substantial revenues.
Fact: The low-income tax cuts reduced revenues the most.

Myth #8: Tax cuts help the economy by "putting money in people's pockets."
Fact: Pro-growth tax cuts support incentives for productive behavior.

Government spending does not "pump new money into the economy" because government must first tax or borrow that money out of the economy. Claims that tax cuts benefit the econ­omy by "putting money in people's pockets" rep­resent the flip side of the pump-priming fallacy. Instead, the right tax cuts help the economy by reducing government's influence on economic decisions and allowing people to respond more to market mechanisms, thereby encouraging more productive behavior.

The Keynesian fallacy is that government spend­ing injects new money into the economy, but the money that government spends must come from somewhere. Government must first tax or borrow that money out of the economy, so all the new spending just redistributes existing income. Simi­larly, the money for tax rebates—which are also touted as a way to inject money into the economy— must also come from somewhere, with government either spending less or borrowing more. In both cases, no new spending is added to the economy. Rather, the government has just transferred it from one group (e.g., investors) in the economy to another (e.g., consumers).

Some argue that certain tax cuts, such as tax rebates, can transfer money from savers to spenders and therefore increase demand. This argument assumes that the savers have been storing their sav­ings in their mattresses, thereby removing it from the economy. In reality, nearly all Americans either invest their savings, thereby financing businesses investment, or deposit the money in banks, which quickly lend it to others to spend or invest. There­fore, the money is spent by someone whether it is initially consumed or saved. Thus, tax rebates create no additional economic activity and cannot "prime the pump."

This does not mean tax policy cannot affect eco­nomic growth. The right tax cuts can add substan­tially to the economy's supply side of productive resources: capital and labor. Economic growth requires that businesses efficiently produce increas­ing amounts of goods and services, and increased production requires consistent business investment and a motivated, productive workforce. Yet high marginal tax rates—defined as the tax on the next dollar earned—serve as a disincentive to engage in such activities. Reducing marginal tax rates on busi­nesses and workers increases the return on work­ing, saving, and investing, thereby creating more business investment and a more productive work­force, both of which add to the economy's long-term capacity for growth.

Yet some propose demand-side tax cuts to "put money in people's pockets" and "get people to spend money." The 2001 tax rebates serve as an example: Washington borrowed billions from investors and then mailed that money to families in the form of $600 checks. Predictably, this simple transfer of existing wealth caused a temporary increase in consumer spending and a corresponding decrease in investment but led to no new economic growth. No new wealth was created because the tax rebate was unrelated to productive behavior. No one had to work, save, or invest more to receive a rebate. Simply redistributing existing wealth does not create new wealth.

In contrast, marginal tax rates were reduced throughout the 1920s, 1960s, and 1980s. In all three decades, investment increased, and higher economic growth followed. Real GDP increased by 59 percent from 1921 to 1929, by 42 percent from 1961 to 1968, and by 31 percent from 1982 to 1989.[15] More recently, the 2003 tax cuts helped to bring about strong economic growth for the past three years.

Policies which best support work, saving, and investment are much more effective at expanding the economy's long-term capacity for growth than those that aim to put money in consumers' pockets.

Myth #9: The Bush tax cuts have not helped the economy.
Fact: The economy responded strongly to the 2003 tax cuts.

The 2003 tax cuts lowered income, capital gains, and dividend tax rates. These policies were designed to increase market incentives to work, save, and invest, thus creating jobs and increas­ing economic growth. An analysis of the six quarters before and after the 2003 tax cuts (a short enough time frame to exclude the 2001 re­cession) shows that this is exactly what hap­pened

GDP grew at an annual rate of just 1.7 percent in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the six quarters following the tax cuts, the growth rate was 4.1 percent.


Non-residential fixed investment declined for 13 consecutive quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. Since then, it has expanded for more than 13 consec­utive quarters before the democrat induced crash.
The S&P 500 dropped 18 percent in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts but increased by 32 percent over the next six quarters. Divi­dend payouts increased as well.
The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quar­ters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs, followed by 5 million jobs in the next seven quarters.
The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quar­ters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs, followed by 5 million jobs in the next seven quarters.
Critics contend that the economy was already recovering and that this strong expansion would have occurred even without the tax cuts. While some growth was naturally occurring, critics do not explain why such a sudden and dramatic turn­around began at the exact moment that these pro-growth policies were enacted. They do not explain why business investment, the stock market, and job numbers suddenly turned around in spring 2003. It is no coincidence that the expansion was powered by strong investment growth, exactly as the tax cuts intended.

The 2003 tax cuts succeeded because of the sup­ply-side policies that critics most oppose: cuts in mar­ginal income tax rates and tax cuts on capital gains and dividends. The 2001 tax cuts that were based more on demand-side tax rebates and redistribution did not significantly increase economic growth.




Myth #9: The Bush tax cuts have not helped the economy.
Fact: The economy responded strongly to the 2003 tax cuts.

Myth #10: The Bush tax cuts were tilted toward the rich.
Fact: The rich are now shouldering even more of the income tax burden.



Again, lesson over...
 
Just a quick minute to reply to your propaganda. Did you notice that in the article that you posted that it said that the revenues had went up AFTER tax cuts? As far as too many dealerships,comptition is always good for the consumer. The overpriced or crooked dealers tend to fall by the wayside,or find a way to finanace people that can't really afford the car. As far as you posting references from newspapers,please stop. I that you beleive what they print in the NY times and other left leaning papers. After this last election America has wised up and see what the left wing media is all about. A group of the left wing newspapers got together the other day to figure out how they could stay afloat. They are on the verge of going the way of Air America while moderate newspapers are in alot less trouble. I understand that you are left wing,but try watching the Fox news channel sometimes. I surf from news channel to news channel just to see how they report on any given story. I find it hard to beleive that MSNBC is even still on the air,those people are so full of hate and their guy won the election. Check out the ratings of the news channels to see how most of America thinks,you may find out that you are in the minority. Just so you know,I wasn't real happy about John McCain,I voted for Huckabee in the primaries. Bush shouldn't have started the TARP crap either,I called my reps and senators on that one. One final thought-the deficits went up duing Bushes years partially because of 911,and then there was that pesky war thing, and then the congress spent like crackheads on the pipe. W can get out of the mess we are in right now,but obama is going about it all wrong. The first thing that he should have done was to either give us tax cuts or suspend us paying income tax for 2 or 3 years. The next time you get your check look at how much they took out for FICA,that would stimulte every person that has a job RIGHT NOW. I've been wanting a pontoon boat,that extra money would get me one.
 
You make some really good points. Specifically about getting us into a war we can't finish. At the same time, Bush was cutting taxes. Cutting revenue and increasing expenditures is a bad idea no matter who you are. Now, I do take issue with your statement that Obama supports deporting jobs. He actually supports American job growth more than any other President in recent memory. I will give you three examples.

1. The GM bailout. When you extrapolate the number of jobs this involves it goes into the millions. As shown in this graphic GM had over 13000 dealerships in the US:

Detroit's move to cut dealers is long overdue | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

I heard on the radio that each dealer has around 50 staff on average including mechanics, accounting, sales, admin, etc. That is about 700,000 jobs minimum if you save them all. GM has announced it will close nearly 3000 at this point. You still saved half a million American jobs. Add the vast supplier network, manufacturers, corporate staff, and all of the same for Chrysler, and this amounts to well over a few million jobs saved.

2. NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement). Obama has been about the only person I have heard calling for a renegotiation of NAFTA:

Organizing for America | BarackObama.com

NAFTA is a raw deal for the American worker because it allows them to ship jobs to Canada or Mexico without consequence. I was down in a plant in Mexico where they manufactured radios and dash units. Workers were paid 2 bucks an hour. The manager told me these jobs would have started at 18-22 in the US. Bush and even Clinton, who championed the agreement, were both staunch supporters. Obama is not saying lets get rid of it, he is saying lets make it more fair for the American worker. Sounds good to me.

3. Tax reform relating to large international companies:

Obama clarifies corporate crackdown proposals - May. 4, 2009

Basically US companies who make money overseas don't have to pay US taxes if they reinvest in the overseas operations. This encourages deportation of US jobs and expansion overseas. The naysayers argue that companies will just move operations overseas permanently. Please, this is a ridiculous notion. Especially when fuel continues to rise and shipping becomes more and more impractical again.

Your post was spoken like a true capitalist, and I agree with trying to give incentives to create jobs, but unfortunately all our government knows how to do is spend their way out. It will probably work, and we are already seeing signs that it is, but you are right about having huge debts to pay.


Then I guess I am a true capitalist...The kind that watches as the favorite restaurant down the road is boarded up because people cannot afford to go out to eat...The kind that watches the local Chevy dealer board up, and the Ford dealer doing the same 1/2 a block down, because people cannot afford to buy new vehicles...The kind that loathes that it is happening, that his neighbors are being put out of work, that neighborhoods are being turned into ghost towns...Thank God I am a capitalist...Because there is no way I can accept what I see happening now, and what I know is going to happen down the road..
Signs of the spendulus working??? Tell it to the 600,000+ who file new claims for unemployment each month.... But soon, we will have an outstanding, thorough report on how the smell of cows affect the people of Iowa..because we are paying for that report...
My point about Bush was that this war, conflict, whatever it is, is costing us dearly and drove our deficit up beyond reasonable expectations...Poor planning has us buried there, continuing to lose valuable men and women each day, while driving the deficit further...
I say give huge tax breaks to those companies that keep the jobs in this country, and tax heavily those who export those jobs...Global companies may be the exception to the rule, but a standard can be figured out for them as well...If I am calling American Express to discuss my account, I want to talk to someone working here in the U.S., not somebody in the middle east...
I say give huge tax breaks to those companies that buy their materials here and use American vendors for their operations..
I say give big tax breaks to companies that cap executive base compensation. Make the big time CEO earn his/her salary based on the performance of the company..They do well, so does the CEO...Not well, then it's macaroni & Cheese tonight, baby..

Oblablah supports job growth in green energy projects that are years from materializing...
I will give him props for wanting to renegotiate NAFTA, a bad deal all the way around. But I will pull the props if his negotiations lead nowhere..Quit talking, DO..!!!
I support saving the American automakers, but they have to face some serious realities first, and make some sacrifices if they want to recover...The continuing problem is that people don't have the money to buy new cars anyway, so it won't matter if GM builds something that simply runs on air going through the front grill...no money, no spending...

As Biden likes to say, it is all about that 3 letter word...J-O-B-S....3, 4, what's the difference among friends..??

Unfortunately, job growth is a distant memory, or a forlorn fantasy...but it isn't the NOW...
 
Not wanting to get us all violated for discussing this here. This is the only place that I know of that we all get together. I will start a new thread so this one can get back on topic.
 
Not wanting to get us all violated for discussing this here. This is the only place that I know of that we all get together. I will start a new thread so this one can get back on topic.

Thanks Sir....All Politicical Topics have to be discussed in the Politics Forum. You and your friends that want to discuss these things will have to go there.

Send your friends a Pm and invite them to discuss it with you there...Thanks
 
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