truckchick1
TB Veteran
- Credits
- 0
The federal government is working on a plan so secure pensions. I don't think that applies to 401s
nlrb findings
- Thread starter truckchick1
- Start date
The federal government is working on a plan so secure pensions. I don't think that applies to 401s
imported_8ball
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
So the company made payments to the union for premiums, and retirement benifits for members who did not serve 5 years. That sounds like the unions deal than. The pension that I participate in and all new non-union hires are vested 20% for every year they serve. so if they leave after only 4 years, they take 80% to there next employer or into a IRA. 5 years for full vesting is pretty standard for most industries and it is a rule covered by the IRS. If you leave before full vesting with the union, it isn't at the fault of the company and they don't get that money back. The union keeps those fund in the general fund. The company has already written that check.
Case in point had a freind who worked for a national retailer that was around for over 100 years, worked for the carrier company that was owned by that retailer. This was a union job, He worked for them for 4 years when they nationally closed there doors. Everyone lost there jobs. The union told him he was out of luck because he wasn't fully vested. only thing he maintained was a small annuity that he paid into himself. Simply put the union kept the money that was deposited by the former employer and said that it was normal practice and would go to the general fund. Just like our Social Security system, Those earning now pay the benifit of those receiving retirement payments. There is no savings account with your name on it. You simply get a statement saying this is what we estimate what you will receive at retirement.
truckchick1
TB Veteran
- Credits
- 0
Very good point if you make 20 per hour and I only make 10 when it comes to SSI we will get the same amount because you have paid to cover me.
imported_8ball
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
Try again, SSI gets Cost of living allowance (COLA) increase every year, not generally big, but this year the increase going into effect is around 5.2%, but the economy didn't grow by nearly that, so instead of 1 person paying the benifits for 1 person it has gone to 6 or 7 people for every person receiving benifits. Why do you think they always talk about the Social Security System will be broke, Soon. Our taxes are covering the difference and our taxes are going up and up. The pension program run by the union is structured the same way. Why else are the Automakers asking for billions to survive. The biggest is that they owe the unions money for the pension and benifits that have gone up and up and up.,,, I don't see that being the problem. Up to the strike has Oak, not met its obligation with the union, Other than still not having a contract I mean. By paying into pensions and health benifits..... Thanks for listening
:TR10driving03:Dear Mr 8Ball 
It seems to me that you are enjoying the benifits of the union while hating it. If you Don't like Walmart dont work there nobody is forcing you. But you signed up paid your $500.00 to get in but you don't want to play by the rules. You want your teamsters benies, While you lube up to stick it to the Guys that built this company. I hope you are proud of your clip board. Pay back is a *****. Just Ask Ed.
It seems to me that you are enjoying the benifits of the union while hating it. If you Don't like Walmart dont work there nobody is forcing you. But you signed up paid your $500.00 to get in but you don't want to play by the rules. You want your teamsters benies, While you lube up to stick it to the Guys that built this company. I hope you are proud of your clip board. Pay back is a *****. Just Ask Ed.v for vendetta
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
When you pay auto insurance do you get to keep the payments ? How about term life? How about homeowners?
What about social security? If you guys feel like posting bonds and starting your own insurance company does that mean you'll give the employees the unused premiums? I didn't think so. I smell a scam at my expense. PLEASE KNOCK THIS BS OFF. MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR YOU ARE SMARTER THAN YOU THINK . Like 8BALL states indirectly above, many blue collar workers have degrees and better educations than many of your management staff. Tell the labor attorney he can't use the same tactics he uses at fruit packing plants. Fire him .HE'S THE ONLY ONE MAKING MONEY HERE AND WINS EITHER WAY. He's laughing!
chuckandbob
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
Concerned - Not sure who you think that I am, so I will restate something that I posted months ago. I am not an employee of the company. I have people that I consider friends on both sides of the aisle. I can not fire anyone. I also don't know why you feel a need to make a point by using all caps. And I don't believe that I asked any questions that would cause you to get so defensive.
That said, my comments about the pension payments had nothing to do with the payor of life insurance, auto insurance, or homeowners. Your comparisons are apples and oranges. At no time did I say anything about the pension payments reverting back to the company. I think that the payments should go with the employee, in the same fashion as a 401k. That was the position of the company, and the reason that they proposed a move to the company 401k.
Again, based on the performance of the markets recently, I can see why the members would prefer a fixed pension instead of the 401k. I will ask once more, what has been the impact on the pension fund from the events on Wall Street over the last few weeks?
v for vendetta
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
I'm glad you are passionately unbiased toward the company plan. I'm interested in the need you have to involve yourself in this forum since you are not mgt. or worker at Oak Harbor. Perhaps you should let your good friends on the management side discuss their business in this forum . Also please note your reference to both insurance and pension in your quote.
Pension is to social security = apples. We all pay in for the benefit of all, sometimes receiving more or less than our total contributions.
Insurance is to insurance = oranges. When most insurance payments are made they are not usually refunded except in the form of claims payouts with few other exceptions.
I am sorry about the capital letters sometimes I'm too lazy to correct a caplock error.
Yes I am angry and very tired of people telling me what I and my striking brothers and sisters want. We are humans and fully capable of analylitical process. If a 401 suits you that's your choice ,but a majority of union employees would not aggree .
Pension is to social security = apples. We all pay in for the benefit of all, sometimes receiving more or less than our total contributions.
Insurance is to insurance = oranges. When most insurance payments are made they are not usually refunded except in the form of claims payouts with few other exceptions.
I am sorry about the capital letters sometimes I'm too lazy to correct a caplock error.
Yes I am angry and very tired of people telling me what I and my striking brothers and sisters want. We are humans and fully capable of analylitical process. If a 401 suits you that's your choice ,but a majority of union employees would not aggree .
chuckandbob
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
I'm just trying to learn from both sides. I apologize if that upsets you.
I, like you, don't want others to tell me what I want. That is why I'm asking the questions. I have spoken with a number of people that are walking the line right now, and some don't have all of the information. Your responses, when civil, give those people the information that they need to make the right decision for themselves and their families.
To answer a question that you didn't ask but hinted at, yes, I am happy with my 401k. Many years ago, a company that I worked for discontinued their pension program and rolled the money into a 401. I have made that work for me. Obviously, the last three months have hit it pretty good, but with some study and diversification in the funds, you can keep that from destroying your future. I am also lucky enough that this event in history didn't happen when I was close to retirement or retired. Those are the people for whom the 401k program was a disaster.
Which brings me to a question that I have asked a couple of times, and nobody seems to want to answer. What has been the impact on the teamsters pension fund over the last three months?
I, like you, don't want others to tell me what I want. That is why I'm asking the questions. I have spoken with a number of people that are walking the line right now, and some don't have all of the information. Your responses, when civil, give those people the information that they need to make the right decision for themselves and their families.
To answer a question that you didn't ask but hinted at, yes, I am happy with my 401k. Many years ago, a company that I worked for discontinued their pension program and rolled the money into a 401. I have made that work for me. Obviously, the last three months have hit it pretty good, but with some study and diversification in the funds, you can keep that from destroying your future. I am also lucky enough that this event in history didn't happen when I was close to retirement or retired. Those are the people for whom the 401k program was a disaster.
Which brings me to a question that I have asked a couple of times, and nobody seems to want to answer. What has been the impact on the teamsters pension fund over the last three months?
silvertooth
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
The Central States has taken a pretty big hit, the Western fund just sent out its annual summary and apparently everything is solvent, they say the current assets of the fund are sufficient to make 16 years of planned pension payments if they were to not receive another dime in contributions from today on. I have heard the Central States in underfunded in excess of 17 billion dollars, which lays a heavy liability on participating employers, and a scary burden on participants. There is something called the Pension Benefit Guarantee Company it's role is to take over underfunded pension plans in the event they are unable to remain solvent. These pensions even underfunded are far superior to a 401k, which was designed to be a supplement to a defined benefit plan.
chuckandbob
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
Even before the market drop, wasn't the western states fund much more viable than the central states program? It seems to me that there was some effort made to intermingle the funds, which the west coast teamsters obviously would, and should, fight off.
Thanks for the response.
Thanks for the response.
happyltlguy
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
The central states trusts are scary. If you consider that their biggest contributor, since UPS pulled out is Yellow/roadway and they are on rough ground right now. also ABF negotiated a cap to their liability as part of their agreement to stay in. you mentioned the pension guarantee corp, the scary thing about that is that they only pay 18.00 or per month for each year of serivce so someone with 30 years service would get 540 per month in a pension, that sucks.
silvertooth
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
I just read the information on this yesterday it is required to be sent out every year now as a condition of the Pension Protection Act, they do give a couple example scenarios, and while it wasn't full it was close to 30% less no where near $18 a year. Come on, $180 for 10 years of service?
harleydude1
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
Happy New Year everyone! Glad to hear that the labor board found merit in our labor dispute(again). I want to thank everyone for keeping the solidarity during these trying times, and may God bless you and your family in 2009.
truckchick1
TB Veteran
- Credits
- 0
Happy New to everyone. Don't want to wish a damper on anyones new year. We are supposed to get our vacation pay Jan 7 (crabs, strikers or management). I have been thru this before is Jan 6 the last day for Joke Hrabor so they don't have to pay all of this money out? So brothers & Sisters stand strong, the company can not win. Remember your 2nd amendment rights.
Shifterknob
The Last Wordslinger
- Credits
- 0
Some excellent points were brought up in this discussion, but let's try and boil it down to plain facts we can all understand.
Pensions:
In a defined benefit pension plan, the trustees (in the case of the WCTPT, it is equally employer and union trustees who determine this) determine the vesting schedule. There is no secret about this, and five years is the standard these days. A decade or two back, it used to be ten years to be fully vested in the Western Pension Trust.
If you go the Pension website, they have a lot of useful information about vesting and portability. For instance, if you do not complete your five years vesting before leaving covered employment, you do not just lose your years automatically and right away. You have, under the Plan rules, as many years as you had in as a participant to get back in without losing your time. Example: I work three years at a covered job, then leave employment for another job with a non-covered employer. I have three years to get back into covered employment before having to start all over again.
Portability was mentioned. I can go from covered employer to covered employer without an issue. The only thing that might change would be the contribution rate, how many hours worked per year count towards my pension benefit (2080 hours is the most common; but some agreements have the first 2080 hours, some have it spread out into every month, and some pay unlimited hours), and whether or not the agreement includes PEER coverage and at what level.
Security. In a multi-employer pension plan like the Western Pension Trust, many employers pay in contributions across a broad range of industries. Pension liability is spread out, too. The union and employer trustees jointly determine benefits paid out, investment strategies, and so forth.
You cannot compare a 401(k) to a defined benefit pension because they are simply different types of plans. As Silvertooth mention, the 401(k) was simply never designed to be a primary retirement vehicle, but instead was designed to act as a supplemental retirement savings plan to a traditional defined benefit pension. Look it up.
However, the corporate world started switching over to the 401(k) because of one main issue: pension liability. In a 401(k), once they have made their matching contribution, the company no longer has any liability or responsibility to the funding level, the plan performance, or any guaranteed payout. In other words, the risk has shifted from the employer to being solely on the employee. Many employers severely underfunded their pension plans to pad their bottom-line numbers in good times, but when bad times hit, they ran out of money to keep paying pension benefits, and so declared the plan insolvent and turned it over to the PBGC.
Corporate irresponsibility blackened the name of the traditional pension, not anything inherently flawed in the structure of the defined benefit pension plan itself.
I don't knock 401(k)'s... I simply point out that they are not a replacement for a traditional pension plan, and as many are finding out the hard way right now, that when you lose a half to two-thirds of your 401(k) value and you are within ten years of retirment, you are not going to be able to retire. Nor is your employer going to do anything about helping you out. They washed their hands of their responsibilities once they made their matching contribution.
It doesn't do you much good to be able to take you 80% vested benefit to another employer when you 80% just got reduced down to nothing in dollar amounts. Most employees are not well-educated in investing and finance, nor do they have the time to learn.
My point is that having diversity in your retirement is the only safe bet. I certainly do not intend to rely solely on my Teamster pension, nor solely on Social Security. Nor my 401(k). Or savings or real estate. I intend to rely on ALL of them.
Diversity is the key to retirement security. but understand that a defined benefit pension is the strong foundation to my retirement plans...
Pensions:
In a defined benefit pension plan, the trustees (in the case of the WCTPT, it is equally employer and union trustees who determine this) determine the vesting schedule. There is no secret about this, and five years is the standard these days. A decade or two back, it used to be ten years to be fully vested in the Western Pension Trust.
If you go the Pension website, they have a lot of useful information about vesting and portability. For instance, if you do not complete your five years vesting before leaving covered employment, you do not just lose your years automatically and right away. You have, under the Plan rules, as many years as you had in as a participant to get back in without losing your time. Example: I work three years at a covered job, then leave employment for another job with a non-covered employer. I have three years to get back into covered employment before having to start all over again.
Portability was mentioned. I can go from covered employer to covered employer without an issue. The only thing that might change would be the contribution rate, how many hours worked per year count towards my pension benefit (2080 hours is the most common; but some agreements have the first 2080 hours, some have it spread out into every month, and some pay unlimited hours), and whether or not the agreement includes PEER coverage and at what level.
Security. In a multi-employer pension plan like the Western Pension Trust, many employers pay in contributions across a broad range of industries. Pension liability is spread out, too. The union and employer trustees jointly determine benefits paid out, investment strategies, and so forth.
You cannot compare a 401(k) to a defined benefit pension because they are simply different types of plans. As Silvertooth mention, the 401(k) was simply never designed to be a primary retirement vehicle, but instead was designed to act as a supplemental retirement savings plan to a traditional defined benefit pension. Look it up.
However, the corporate world started switching over to the 401(k) because of one main issue: pension liability. In a 401(k), once they have made their matching contribution, the company no longer has any liability or responsibility to the funding level, the plan performance, or any guaranteed payout. In other words, the risk has shifted from the employer to being solely on the employee. Many employers severely underfunded their pension plans to pad their bottom-line numbers in good times, but when bad times hit, they ran out of money to keep paying pension benefits, and so declared the plan insolvent and turned it over to the PBGC.
Corporate irresponsibility blackened the name of the traditional pension, not anything inherently flawed in the structure of the defined benefit pension plan itself.
I don't knock 401(k)'s... I simply point out that they are not a replacement for a traditional pension plan, and as many are finding out the hard way right now, that when you lose a half to two-thirds of your 401(k) value and you are within ten years of retirment, you are not going to be able to retire. Nor is your employer going to do anything about helping you out. They washed their hands of their responsibilities once they made their matching contribution.
It doesn't do you much good to be able to take you 80% vested benefit to another employer when you 80% just got reduced down to nothing in dollar amounts. Most employees are not well-educated in investing and finance, nor do they have the time to learn.
My point is that having diversity in your retirement is the only safe bet. I certainly do not intend to rely solely on my Teamster pension, nor solely on Social Security. Nor my 401(k). Or savings or real estate. I intend to rely on ALL of them.
Diversity is the key to retirement security. but understand that a defined benefit pension is the strong foundation to my retirement plans...
Shifterknob
The Last Wordslinger
- Credits
- 0
Let's get past all of the crap, and get down to brass tacks. This fight wasn't over pension or medical. It was, without a doubt, an attempt to break the union at Oak Harbor. This isn't even arguable. It is a fact.
How can I know this? Simple math, my friends. They have spent a hundred times more in dollars to fight the union than they would have spent had they simply tried to bargain in good faith, and reach an equitable settlement. Had they simply agreed to the status quo with medical, a decent pension bump and a modest wage increase, we would be doing just fine even in the current economy. Sure, we might have a few layoffs, but they woudn't be looking at closing their doors like they are right now.
And make no doubt about it... they will be closing their doors. They have shown an unwillingness to bargain in good faith or to even be reasonable during the entire affair. Even in the face of the federal government telling them they are IN THE WRONG, they stubbornly refuuse to admit fault or show any kind of reasonable behavior. And let's also point out the fact that they hired a well-known union-busting attorney, made trips back east to research how to break a union in the workplace, and their little slush fund set up specifically to deal with a strike. They never did any of that before, so what was different about this time? Hmmm?
They- meaning the VP brothers- shot themselves in the foot. Not the union... not the employees. They did it to themselves, and I feel the most sorry for Henry having to witness the final destruction of his company. Him and us employees, of course.
As to the part of the company that is non-union and are suffering too, I am sorry in some small way, but not very. Many of you in the non-union terminals backed us, but too many were content to ride the union employees coattails where wages and benefits were concerned. Then, when a line had to be drawn in the sand, many non-union employees either worked at striking union terminals as replacement workers, or pointed your fingers of blame at us for being "unreasonable". Had you all signed cards and stood with us, we wouldn't be here. Many of you want to have your cake and eat it, too. but life don't work that way, and now... here we are.
Well, boys and girls... this is the real world. Sometimes you do have to stand up for yourself and fight to make a point and defend your principles. The union was being more than reasonable, but we weren't about to flush our principles down the toilet just to avoid a fight. If you are unwilling to stand up for yourself, you are nothing more than a slave.
If our Founding Fathers had had the attitudes of many in the non-union fold, we would be saying "God save the Queen" and drinking tea and paying taxes to Britain still.
Obviously, I wish the VP's had shown a bit of common sense and tried to work something out, but that was never, ever in the cards. David especially had every intent of taking us on this time, come Hell or high water. He rolled the dice, and he lost, and we all lost. We are all paying the price for his arrogance and blind stubborness.
But make no mistake... we will see this company shut down if they refuse to play ball and bargain in good faith. I daresay they have passed the point of no return, and the handwriting is on the wall. I see them shutting their doors in January. you can't haul freight at a 92.5% discount for very long, y'know? Every bit of freight they are still hauling (which ain't much), they are hauling at a loss. The signs are all their that they are going down very soon, and I say good riddance.
So, those of you in non-union country, if you want to blame someone for the loss of your job and the destruction of OHFL, I highly suggest you start looking where the blame goes, and their names are David and Edward VP...
How can I know this? Simple math, my friends. They have spent a hundred times more in dollars to fight the union than they would have spent had they simply tried to bargain in good faith, and reach an equitable settlement. Had they simply agreed to the status quo with medical, a decent pension bump and a modest wage increase, we would be doing just fine even in the current economy. Sure, we might have a few layoffs, but they woudn't be looking at closing their doors like they are right now.
And make no doubt about it... they will be closing their doors. They have shown an unwillingness to bargain in good faith or to even be reasonable during the entire affair. Even in the face of the federal government telling them they are IN THE WRONG, they stubbornly refuuse to admit fault or show any kind of reasonable behavior. And let's also point out the fact that they hired a well-known union-busting attorney, made trips back east to research how to break a union in the workplace, and their little slush fund set up specifically to deal with a strike. They never did any of that before, so what was different about this time? Hmmm?
They- meaning the VP brothers- shot themselves in the foot. Not the union... not the employees. They did it to themselves, and I feel the most sorry for Henry having to witness the final destruction of his company. Him and us employees, of course.
As to the part of the company that is non-union and are suffering too, I am sorry in some small way, but not very. Many of you in the non-union terminals backed us, but too many were content to ride the union employees coattails where wages and benefits were concerned. Then, when a line had to be drawn in the sand, many non-union employees either worked at striking union terminals as replacement workers, or pointed your fingers of blame at us for being "unreasonable". Had you all signed cards and stood with us, we wouldn't be here. Many of you want to have your cake and eat it, too. but life don't work that way, and now... here we are.
Well, boys and girls... this is the real world. Sometimes you do have to stand up for yourself and fight to make a point and defend your principles. The union was being more than reasonable, but we weren't about to flush our principles down the toilet just to avoid a fight. If you are unwilling to stand up for yourself, you are nothing more than a slave.
If our Founding Fathers had had the attitudes of many in the non-union fold, we would be saying "God save the Queen" and drinking tea and paying taxes to Britain still.
Obviously, I wish the VP's had shown a bit of common sense and tried to work something out, but that was never, ever in the cards. David especially had every intent of taking us on this time, come Hell or high water. He rolled the dice, and he lost, and we all lost. We are all paying the price for his arrogance and blind stubborness.
But make no mistake... we will see this company shut down if they refuse to play ball and bargain in good faith. I daresay they have passed the point of no return, and the handwriting is on the wall. I see them shutting their doors in January. you can't haul freight at a 92.5% discount for very long, y'know? Every bit of freight they are still hauling (which ain't much), they are hauling at a loss. The signs are all their that they are going down very soon, and I say good riddance.
So, those of you in non-union country, if you want to blame someone for the loss of your job and the destruction of OHFL, I highly suggest you start looking where the blame goes, and their names are David and Edward VP...
Well said Shifterknob. Their arrogance is unimaginable! Look at what happened with the whole situation regarding Bill H and the female driver he grabbed! Not only is he in trouble, but the whole company is by not responding to the Feds! They believe they are above the law.
MR. Shifterknob You have said TRUTH TRUTH TRUTH. I can not even believe that their are people that can do this to long time faithful employees and to top it off men and women that think that you can cross a picket line without repercussions. You are so right on. But this is beyond just the union busting idea the VPs came up with. This is to claim one way of life and all the while do evil, both public and in private. You can not mess with God and not get punished. (WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND) It is a truth whether you believe in God or not. We are the unfortunate... the families that are getting hurt.... All because of EDWARD first and then Dave. We will see the aftermath of all this and I will pray for us and for all the VPs they are going to need it, mostly the wives that are also victoms of the leadership of the VP men.
foster1662
TB Lurker
- Credits
- 0
I agree Odawg, this would be Dave and Eds style
And Kidd if the rumors are true about Ed, one of the Vanderfool wives may soon be
in a leadership roll in this company. Dave is a control freak and I doubt if he would accept a woman having some say over the direction this company is heading. Dave seems to be willing to sacrifice
everything just for control. This company is Doomed they
took advice from people who obviously had no idea what kind
of anger had been brewing with the employees towards the
owners, the DVD's sent to our homes, telling us how they were prepared for the worst, forcing us to sit in meetings to watch the DVD's, mailing paperwork to our homes with information on how to withdrawl from the Union. I personally have no regrets giving the VPs the fight they asked for.