FedEx Freight | Paid Oganizer vs. Union Buster

In my world it is okay for the boss to lay off whoever he/she wants. I never said younger guys are more valuable, yet many seem to draw that conclusion.

So you don't think I am making my arguments up as I go along, here's what I posted 10 days ago in response to a civil debate I was having with SwampRatt. Specifically post #102


"Early in our career we aren't as valuable to our employer because of our learning curve and their need to recoup their investment in us. We may be willing and able to work hard, but not necessarily as smart.

In our later years, we are about as knowledgeable of our job as we can be. We are likely working smarter and safer than the others, but we can't produce as much in the day. We could almost do our jobs with our eyes closed, so to speak.

The in-between years, we know our job well. Likely don't need much hand-holding. We are probably the best balance of working hard and working smart there is. High turn-over rate for this age group for a multitude of reasons.

So, every stage of the job is worth about the same for various reasons.

As to merit pay, bumps in wage for safe driving record milestones is one fairly objective measure."


With a link to the thread here: http://www.truckingboards.com/forum/fedex-freight/110947-vancouver-center-closing-11.html

Then quit working to hard to get an "angle" on keeping up.. Sounds like you're more worried about the younger folks than us old farts... I don't give them a second thought... They want to get cocky with me, I bring'em down a notch... But I don't go outta my way to make trouble either nor do I worry... They know within there hearts, if they gonna keep up, they better get to steppin'........ I've heard them say it...
 
In my world it is okay for the boss to lay off whoever he/she wants. I never said younger guys are more valuable, yet many seem to draw that conclusion.

So you don't think I am making my arguments up as I go along, here's what I posted 10 days ago in response to a civil debate I was having with SwampRatt. Specifically post #102


"Early in our career we aren't as valuable to our employer because of our learning curve and their need to recoup their investment in us. We may be willing and able to work hard, but not necessarily as smart.

In our later years, we are about as knowledgeable of our job as we can be. We are likely working smarter and safer than the others, but we can't produce as much in the day. We could almost do our jobs with our eyes closed, so to speak.

The in-between years, we know our job well. Likely don't need much hand-holding. We are probably the best balance of working hard and working smart there is. High turn-over rate for this age group for a multitude of reasons.

So, every stage of the job is worth about the same for various reasons.

As to merit pay, bumps in wage for safe driving record milestones is one fairly objective measure."


With a link to the thread here: http://www.truckingboards.com/forum/fedex-freight/110947-vancouver-center-closing-11.html

Ok lets assume for a moment that you are a boss that has ethics, a lot of employers don't have those ethics and will over hire, have you train them then let you go because you make more per hour. In an at will employment they don't have to give a reason, just thanks for you service and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
 
Agreed, and if their judgement proves to be skewed their value to their employer has just decreased ;).

I think you misunderstood me when I said there may be personal reasons for de-valuing an employee. What I had meant was that an employers' changing perceptions may be due to intangibles like personality,....or...grooming... or just a suddenly developing distaste for the employee.....Something that has nothing to do with job performance. The judgement that I was referring to that might be skewed was the employer's,....and would that be fair to an employee if his value was based on a personal issue, instead of a professional one? This is presuming, of course, that the employee in question has completed training,....probationary periods,....in other words,...had worked for a certain amount of time,.....once again, presuming his valuation was satisfactory to his employer.

I disagree on both counts. One, I don't believe seniority is the better option. If I don't have dispatchers or terminal managers making decisions in the best interest of the company then I have the wrong people in those positions. Last thing I want is good leaders with their hands tied. Only you determine whether you get to continue feeding your family. If they starve, it's on you, not your employer.
.

I think the seniority issue is an equalizer in the workplace. Without seniority, human nature would prevail,.....and, once again,...without a limiting factor like seniority,...then the intangibles like personalities come into play,.....and decisions would be made based on emotive choices, instead of economic ones. At the turn of the century, in H.C.Frick's non-Union steel mills, it was common, every pay day, for mill workers to...."tip"....their foremen....a dollar,...bottle of whisky,...offer to do a chore around the foreman's house...........to insure that they get a ..."good"....job the next week. Considering the fact that some of the jobs,....like working in the lime-pits,......literally shortened your life-span,....your...."tip".....might be a life-or-death choice. Would you say that those mill workers were able to retain their dignity as Americans,...and as human beings,...knowing they were diverting food from their families, and giving it to their foreman? You did say we were sticking to the rules and laws of this nation,....both OSHA and the EEOC were created long, long after Mr. Frick had passed on.........Unless you are hiring candidates for sainthood as dispatchers and terminal managers,...it would be hard to remove the Darwinian nature of employee valuation from people who had autocratic control over the workforce. As I said, Seniority isn't perfect,...that would require a perfect employer, with a perfect screening process,....but Seniority does offset any decisions made based on non-economic factors. Seniority allows the rank-and-file a modicum of dignity,........and actually promotes morale.

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I think you misunderstood me when I said there may be personal reasons for de-valuing an employee. What I had meant was that an employers' changing perceptions may be due to intangibles like personality,....or...grooming... or just a suddenly developing distaste for the employee.....Something that has nothing to do with job performance. The judgement that I was referring to that might be skewed was the employer's

You were clear. I understood what you meant, but could have worded the below quote better:

EX396 said:
Agreed, and if their judgement proves to be skewed their value to their employer has just decreased.

What I was saying is that: "If that dispatcher or terminal managers' judgement proved to be skewed, then that managers' value to their employer has just decreased ;)

canaryinthemine said:
I think the seniority issue is an equalizer in the workplace. Without seniority, human nature would prevail,.....and, once again,...without a limiting factor like seniority,...then the intangibles like personalities come into play,.....and decisions would be made based on emotive choices

If we have managers making emotive choices, then we have the wrong folks making said choices.

canaryinthemine said:
As I said, Seniority isn't perfect,...that would require a perfect employer, with a perfect screening process,....but Seniority does offset any decisions made based on non-economic factors. Seniority allows the rank-and-file a modicum of dignity,........and actually promotes morale.

Respectfully, we are going to have to agree to disagree. While seniority can offset decisions made based on non-economic factors, the handicap it places on the company isn't worth the price, so to speak. Proper treatment, appreciation and compensation gives the employee more than a mere modicum of dignity. Nothing worse than an employee feeling "untouchable", whether that is the CEO's son-in-law way over his head or the 25 year guy who hasn't pulled his own weight in years.
 
I think the profits over people mentality is getting kinda sick. Ic its all about youth we all need contracts like NFL players until we're about 35-40 and retire. Are you willing to put price on age?
The Church has a term called The Culture of Death..has to do with abortion and no respect for life...I think the drivi.g fotce for that is the profits over people mentality which very much is a part of the antiunion philosophy.
IMO it would be best for your side to go back to our views than for us to follow you........When unions (senikrity and all) had heavy influence we didnt need Obamacare, We had less individual and nationzl debt
We had NO trade deficit. The Dollar was king. We didnt need to "plan parenthood". We could retire with great pensions and healthcare. We had less welfare. Less divorce. More priests and nuns..........and more jobs which paid those who needed jobs which paid, the uneducated, which are the ones now either working in poverty o4 collecting govt assistance.
Profits over people, antiunion views ,destroyed all that. Respect seniority.....dont send them off to minimum wage and wrlfare when youth is gonê....unlesz youre willing to pay millions for young workers. Which you're not.


You were clear. I understood what you meant, but could have worded the below quote better:



What I was saying is that: "If that dispatcher or terminal managers' judgement proved to be skewed, then that managers' value to their employer has just decreased ;)



If we have managers making emotive choices, then we have the wrong folks making said choices.



Respectfully, we are going to have to agree to disagree. While seniority can offset decisions made based on non-economic factors, the handicap it places on the company isn't worth the price, so to speak. Proper treatment, appreciation and compensation gives the employee more than a mere modicum of dignity. Nothing worse than an employee feeling "untouchable", whether that is the CEO's son-in-law way over his head or the 25 year guy who hasn't pulled his own weight in years.
 
Sounds great to me! It's the folks that want a fair days pay for less than a fair days work that are the problem

This "problem" as you say has a very simple solution. Trouble is there are so few management types these days that actually know how to manage. I have worked for some of the very best in our trade. Old school foremen that knew how to motivate. This new breed? Pathetic to say the least. The majority of us old farts produced more on accident BEFORE this new breed management began justifying their employment. We have been around. We don't cut corners. By the numbers as safely and quickly as a quality product can be produced. But that 6 letter word SAFELY seems to always get in the way of production. This is where most managers fail on many counts. They turn a blind eye to safety in the name of production. That sir is why that language was written into our labor agreements many years ago. To protect us and the company from management stupidity.

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I think the drivi.g fotce for that is the profits over people mentality which very much is a part of the antiunion philosophy.
IMO it would be best for your side to go back to our views than for us to follow you........When unions (senikrity and all) had heavy influence we didnt need Obamacare, We had less individual and nationzl debt
We had NO trade deficit. The Dollar was king. We didnt need to "plan parenthood". We could retire with great pensions and healthcare. We had less welfare. Less divorce. More priests and nuns..........and more jobs which paid those who needed jobs which paid, the uneducated, which are the ones now either working in poverty o4 collecting govt assistance.
Profits over people, antiunion views ,destroyed all that. Respect seniority.....dont send them off to minimum wage and wrlfare when youth is gonê....unlesz youre willing to pay millions for young workers. Which you're not.

"Profits over people?"....give me a break. You have the freedom to invest in the corporations. You have the freedom to start your own corporation.

We had less individual debt when people waited until they could pay cash for the things they wanted. When people didn't live beyond their means. We had less national debt before Obama. We had less welfare when people were willing to work for their check.

You may argue that our wages have not kept up with our costs of living, I will argue that our standard of living doesn't match our wages.

Good day, late for a meeting!
 
B.S. It's a business not a charity. If my best isn't good enough then my employer shouldn't have any obligation moral or legal to keep me around whether I am 20 or 70.



You don't have to work harder to keep your job. Continue to find ways to remain valuable to your employer and they'll keep you around. You may know a safety guy/trainer at Estes that had 30 years at GI when Estes purchased them. He was s-l-o-w as molasses back then. I don't think I ever saw him break a sweat, but had 30 years accident free, had a really high-mileage tractor that was very rarely down for any repairs, he has found a way to remain valuable to his employer by using his abilities and knowledge.




Yes, you are discriminating based on their age. However, if you said "I am not going to hire you because your lack of experience" as it suggests to you (and me) that you will be too hard on equipment and are likely to have accidents. That's okay.
This "find other ways to be valuable to your employer" comment sounds like a house boy or something.Kiss your manager's boots because you can't run faster than a younger guy.How asinine is that? Just kinda stupid
 
"Profits over people?"....give me a break. You have the freedom to invest in the corporations. You have the freedom to start your own corporation.

We had less individual debt when people waited until they could pay cash for the things they wanted. When people didn't live beyond their means. We had less national debt before Obama. We had less welfare when people were willing to work for their check.

You may argue that our wages have not kept up with our costs of living, I will argue that our standard of living doesn't match our wages.

Good day, late for a meeting!

Thankfully your idealism proves once again why our country was in better shape when unionized labor was at it's highest.

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You were clear. I understood what you meant, but could have worded the below quote better:



What I was saying is that: "If that dispatcher or terminal managers' judgement proved to be skewed, then that managers' value to their employer has just decreased ;)



If we have managers making emotive choices, then we have the wrong folks making said choices.



Respectfully, we are going to have to agree to disagree. While seniority can offset decisions made based on non-economic factors, the handicap it places on the company isn't worth the price, so to speak. Proper treatment, appreciation and compensation gives the employee more than a mere modicum of dignity. Nothing worse than an employee feeling "untouchable", whether that is the CEO's son-in-law way over his head or the 25 year guy who hasn't pulled his own weight in years.[/QUOT.


With a contract you can't just pick and choose who your gonna get rid of, you start at the bottom and go up!!!! But that does not fit your agenda does it!! You want to be able to single out who ever and so be it!!!
 
I have to ask.What the heck does an employee care what decisions the company makes?Some of these guys sound like they sleep in the same bed as these corporate pigs do.I call all corporations pigs.Because they could care less about you me or anyone else.Corporate pigs are not the laborers friend.
 
Ol ex is in his own little world

Yes, but it's a nice one ;). I would rather have my ideology, if it were mine alone than share yours with a million people.

I have to ask.What the heck does an employee care what decisions the company makes?Some of these guys sound like they sleep in the same bed as these corporate pigs do.I call all corporations pigs.Because they could care less about you me or anyone else.Corporate pigs are not the laborers friend.

Don't you have a protest or march to attend somewhere?
 
Yes, but it's a nice one ;). I would rather have my ideology, if it were mine alone than share yours with a million people.



Don't you have a protest or march to attend somewhere?

You could be a poster child for why we need Union's.

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Excellent rebuttal Getoverit. For some reason I picture the little angry 4 year old calling someone a poopie head.

Anything constructive to add to the discussion?
 
Excellent rebuttal Getoverit. For some reason I picture the little angry 4 year old calling someone a poopie head.

Anything constructive to add to the discussion?

These guys have a lot on their plate right now, maybe you and I should give them a break for awhile.. I respect these guys and they have taken us coming in here letting us share our opinions..

So guys, I speak for myself and no one else.. I do apologize if I have rubbed anyone in the wrong way.. Again, I appreciate you guys letting me make my comments and I wish all of you the best.. Thank you...
 
A self-imposed time out?

What do the young'ns call it? "Putting me on blast!"

Yes, I understand many have a full plate and emotions are high. However, the road I am going to take isn't quite as high as yours Starkravinloon, kudos. You are a more mature man than I. I have yet to master turning the other cheek.

It is clear that some of these folks deserve, and have my respect as they have been open to listening and debating opinions they disagree with in a reasoned fashion. That's what these forums are for. To those folks, I apologize for stepping out of line with some of the other forum members.
 
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