How many Brothers would vote to leave CSPF if ABF would agree to the UPS plan for the members that left CSPF? I am sure ABF doesn't want to have to pay the pension liabilities. But hey yrc didn't pay theirs. So if we choose to have ABF say pay 2% of the 1965 rate what is to stop us. After all tyson said ABF was in trouble back in 2009. And remember our vote was on whether or not to defer out of CSPF! YOUR CURIOUS BROTHER ALWAYS!
ABF | Pension
- Thread starter Muler
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Was just wondering if any of you have seen the dvd mailed out to some road drivers and UE drivers around June of this year? It's a video of a " town hall meeting" held by Roy Slagle. In it he says that ABF will not be trying to get out of the pension like they did in 2008, said it would cost to much(over a billion dollars) to buy out of it now. He mentioned more flexibilty as the greater concern.
My vote would be for accountability and responsibilities on guaranteed future pension dispersion. What this country and our union needs is men of integrity... our hard working union brothers and sisters deserve this. good thread brother Muler. See the need, take the lead.
nothumbleenough
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Thanks for putting the poll together. I am open for change. Every contract I have voted on since 2001 has rapidly increased our pension contribution while our wages have struggled to keep up with inflation. And still no pension resolution.
It was explained to me many years ago the multiemployer pension plan mimicks many strong men trying to lift a very heavy object. Every time someone stops lifting(as when a union LTL goes out of business, too many examples to cite) the burdon falls on those still lifting the object. In the days when most of LTL freight companies were union, this model functioned well because the former employee of the bankrupt union company could go to work for another union company. That new union company would then start paying into the pension, and after a few years, the employee would be fully vested again in the pension because it continued to receive his contributions. Unfortunately, the unionized percentage of the LTL is a fraction of what is was when this multiemployer plan was first offered. Therefore, nobody is able to sustain the substantial weight of the pension. It will ultimately crush the remaining companies still trying to lift.
There are many ethical question such as: Am I voting to abandon those teamsters currently retired or their spouses currently getting a pension check? Should ABF be contractibly liable for those teamsters who never worked a day for ABF? How can the union allow one company to pay a fraction of its contribution and still allow it to compete against a company that has honorably paid its obligations? The list goes on, but answers are not so easy.
It was explained to me many years ago the multiemployer pension plan mimicks many strong men trying to lift a very heavy object. Every time someone stops lifting(as when a union LTL goes out of business, too many examples to cite) the burdon falls on those still lifting the object. In the days when most of LTL freight companies were union, this model functioned well because the former employee of the bankrupt union company could go to work for another union company. That new union company would then start paying into the pension, and after a few years, the employee would be fully vested again in the pension because it continued to receive his contributions. Unfortunately, the unionized percentage of the LTL is a fraction of what is was when this multiemployer plan was first offered. Therefore, nobody is able to sustain the substantial weight of the pension. It will ultimately crush the remaining companies still trying to lift.
There are many ethical question such as: Am I voting to abandon those teamsters currently retired or their spouses currently getting a pension check? Should ABF be contractibly liable for those teamsters who never worked a day for ABF? How can the union allow one company to pay a fraction of its contribution and still allow it to compete against a company that has honorably paid its obligations? The list goes on, but answers are not so easy.
Wow, how just a few years change opinions. In 07 I said the same thing. But my back stabbing so called union brothers called me a union hating ****.
Very well described. Hopefully others will add positive thoughts to this thread. Thanks brother Muler for the poll.
woodennose
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I would like to see each company put money into a account for each employee. Central PA did this years ago, they called it RIP, Retirement Income Plan. I have no idea why they went to a different type of pension? The money they paid in for you went into YOUR acount. I dont have any idea what should be done with the people that are collecting a pension , but something needs to be done.
PS. Does anyone else think Muler should take over for Tyson? I'm just sayin!!!!!!!!!
PS. Does anyone else think Muler should take over for Tyson? I'm just sayin!!!!!!!!!
D
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I see the biggest issue being the carrying over of time accrued into a new plan when early retirement numbers come into play.
Early retirement? I just hope I can get any retirement... Central States has already had to change the rules to try to stay solvent. At the rate things are going, early retirement will start at 65 yrs 6 months of age...
PS. I am not saying you don't have a valid concern...
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I see many of you are torn with the idea of ABF being allowed to go in another direction with their pension obligations. The key word is OBLIGATIONS!
You have to remember many many years ago young men started out in this business giving up wages for the company to pay into a pension plan for them.
They lived up to their OBLIGATIONS! Deregulation changed the industry in the most drastic manner. Many trucking companies failed and were closed.
But remember everybody has been paid for living up to their OBLIGATIONS,And even those not living up to their OBLIGATIONS. The fund managers the CSPF employees, The Federal Overseers, The Trustees and the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS PAID TO THE INVESTMENT COMPANIES! The only losers stand to be the BROTHERS and SISTERS that have paid into the funds.
We have paid the bills for decades and now we are being told that it might be our families that have nothing coming. And some just want us to walk away.
That is not an option. We the members that have given up wage increases for decades in order to fund OUR PENSIONS and now we are being told to sacrifice everything we have already earned.
My family DESERVES to enjoy my EARNED PENSION! There are answers to the pension woes but why is the only ideas being kicked around involve my pension benefits being cut or discontinued. Did you know the guy that oversees CSPF makes almost $400,000.00 dollars a year in salary. What are his benefits. What is his pension benefits and where are they paid into?
No we need to look at all avenues and not just the one's that harm the members. Many worry about ABF and their ability to deal with the pension plans.
Let's talk about a couple things that would happen if WE ALLOWED ABF OUT.
#1- They would overnight become a much more valuable company. Without the pension liabilities which would likely be in the BILLION PLUS AREA.
And who would benefit from this? ABF! And who would suffer from this. The ABF TEAMSTERS! If ABF had no pension liabilities and they opt out of the NMFA and sell the company to a non union interest there would be no OBLIGATION TO DOVE TAIL seniority and no penalties for taking the company non union.
#2-Many ABF Teamsters would have to work until they DIE or are UNABLE TO MEET THEIR WORK OBLIGATIONS!
These are just two the the possible things that could occur if we allow ABF out of their pension liabilities.
So as you can see the word OBLIGATION only seems to apply to the ABF Teamsters. How about the OBLIGATIONS on the part of ABF and the IBT and also the CSPF and all the others that are supposed to be OBLIGATED to us?
The answers to our pension woes does not fall on our shoulders alone there are many others that have to give to solve these problems and I say let's make them LIVE UP TO THEIR OBLIGATIONS FIRST AND FORE MOST! YOUR ALREADY PAID AHEAD BROTHER ALWAYS!
THEY BROKE IT! THEY SHOULD FIX IT!
You have to remember many many years ago young men started out in this business giving up wages for the company to pay into a pension plan for them.
They lived up to their OBLIGATIONS! Deregulation changed the industry in the most drastic manner. Many trucking companies failed and were closed.
But remember everybody has been paid for living up to their OBLIGATIONS,And even those not living up to their OBLIGATIONS. The fund managers the CSPF employees, The Federal Overseers, The Trustees and the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS PAID TO THE INVESTMENT COMPANIES! The only losers stand to be the BROTHERS and SISTERS that have paid into the funds.
We have paid the bills for decades and now we are being told that it might be our families that have nothing coming. And some just want us to walk away.
That is not an option. We the members that have given up wage increases for decades in order to fund OUR PENSIONS and now we are being told to sacrifice everything we have already earned.
My family DESERVES to enjoy my EARNED PENSION! There are answers to the pension woes but why is the only ideas being kicked around involve my pension benefits being cut or discontinued. Did you know the guy that oversees CSPF makes almost $400,000.00 dollars a year in salary. What are his benefits. What is his pension benefits and where are they paid into?
No we need to look at all avenues and not just the one's that harm the members. Many worry about ABF and their ability to deal with the pension plans.
Let's talk about a couple things that would happen if WE ALLOWED ABF OUT.
#1- They would overnight become a much more valuable company. Without the pension liabilities which would likely be in the BILLION PLUS AREA.
And who would benefit from this? ABF! And who would suffer from this. The ABF TEAMSTERS! If ABF had no pension liabilities and they opt out of the NMFA and sell the company to a non union interest there would be no OBLIGATION TO DOVE TAIL seniority and no penalties for taking the company non union.
#2-Many ABF Teamsters would have to work until they DIE or are UNABLE TO MEET THEIR WORK OBLIGATIONS!
These are just two the the possible things that could occur if we allow ABF out of their pension liabilities.
So as you can see the word OBLIGATION only seems to apply to the ABF Teamsters. How about the OBLIGATIONS on the part of ABF and the IBT and also the CSPF and all the others that are supposed to be OBLIGATED to us?
The answers to our pension woes does not fall on our shoulders alone there are many others that have to give to solve these problems and I say let's make them LIVE UP TO THEIR OBLIGATIONS FIRST AND FORE MOST! YOUR ALREADY PAID AHEAD BROTHER ALWAYS!
THEY BROKE IT! THEY SHOULD FIX IT!
Muler, I have three questions;
1) Just because ABF is allowed out of the NMFA does that mean the new contract couldn't have similar language in it concerning job security and union protections? It could be very much based on the last contract, but just cover us, correct?
2) Hasn't ABF paid all their obligations due per the current contract (unlike some other carriers) and the bad economy, loss of other contributors, and the poor choices at Central States are the problem, not a lack of meeting their obligations by ABF?
3) Has anyone put forth a plan to just let ABF get out without paying a substantial withdrawal penalty?
1) Just because ABF is allowed out of the NMFA does that mean the new contract couldn't have similar language in it concerning job security and union protections? It could be very much based on the last contract, but just cover us, correct?
2) Hasn't ABF paid all their obligations due per the current contract (unlike some other carriers) and the bad economy, loss of other contributors, and the poor choices at Central States are the problem, not a lack of meeting their obligations by ABF?
3) Has anyone put forth a plan to just let ABF get out without paying a substantial withdrawal penalty?
In response to your first question ABF would more than likely also go for more relaxed rules and OBLIGATIONS. They would remove any and all things that they find constrictive. Just remember when they offered higher wages in return for a three tier wage progression. It is a well known tactic to offer up a carrot and either gain concessions or remove key parts of contracts. Would you trust the IBT to oversee these hidden agendas if they were attempted?
And my response to your second question is YES they have.But as we both know they have or most likely will attempt to get some relief for their pension liabilities. You must remember if they are allowed to deviate from the agreed to rules of the pension funds we the ABF Teamsters will suffer the penalties. As in the yrc Teamsters case they were never informed that there was rules and penalties for deferring or reducing their contribution rates. And also remember ABF only pays into the funds for the time their employees work. With a 10% penalty because the fund is in the RED ZONE! We must ask ourselves why ABF and the other companies have not gone after yrc to live up to their OBLIGATIONS to the funds. After all they are signatory to all of us in the pension funds. So no ABF has to watch to make sure others in the fund live up to their OBLIGATIONS!
On the third question I have heard of no current offers,
nothumbleenough
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Muler, in your opinion, who is the "They" in your statement "they broke it, they should fix it?"
When I say they I mean all the parties that have been paid to oversee the funds and the funding. As you may know ABF has had a TRUSTEE on the board. why has his voice never been heard before? Look anyone that accepted money for their overseeing of the funds has to accept the responsibility of the condition they are in today.
It was not us the Rank and File that allowed UPS out it was the fund Trustees and the others responsible for the funds success.
In case I did not make myself perfectly clear. We the ABF Teamsters have lived up to our OBLIGATIONS. Now it is time others are held accountable.
Where was the ABF Trustee when yrc ceased payments and then was allowed to pay a reduced cost? There are many questions to be answered.
And I am not saying ABF is the bad guys in this. I am saying they also have OBLIGATIONS!
Every body is pointing the finger for the vested ABF Teamsters to do the sacrificing. I have not heard one person calling for the same to be done to the ABF management and executive funds.
No there will be no pension cuts without a fight. All it is going to take is that any relief ABF Teamsters give ABF will have to be at no expense to the Brothers that have earned their pensions. YOUR ALL READY FULLY PAID UP BROTHER ALWAYS!
It was not us the Rank and File that allowed UPS out it was the fund Trustees and the others responsible for the funds success.
In case I did not make myself perfectly clear. We the ABF Teamsters have lived up to our OBLIGATIONS. Now it is time others are held accountable.
Where was the ABF Trustee when yrc ceased payments and then was allowed to pay a reduced cost? There are many questions to be answered.
And I am not saying ABF is the bad guys in this. I am saying they also have OBLIGATIONS!
Every body is pointing the finger for the vested ABF Teamsters to do the sacrificing. I have not heard one person calling for the same to be done to the ABF management and executive funds.
No there will be no pension cuts without a fight. All it is going to take is that any relief ABF Teamsters give ABF will have to be at no expense to the Brothers that have earned their pensions. YOUR ALL READY FULLY PAID UP BROTHER ALWAYS!
D
Docker
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And may I also add...the company executives and the union officials will make sure they receive their pensions...so why should the rank and file be any different???????
You know Docker has a good point. Why is it that just the Rank and Files Benefits are in question. Why did the parties responsible for our pensions not use the same protocol in overseeing ours as they did theirs? Come on Brothers wake up! It is time that the piper be paid and we have already paid our part. Let's hold everybody accountable for their OBLIGATIONS! We are not going to harm ABF but we are going to make sure that our needs are not overlooked. We fulfilled our OBLIGATIONS and now everybody else will fulfill theirs. If you added up what it would cost ABF to ensure that all vested Teamsters of ABF's pension be made whole upon retirement it would be just a fraction of the pension liabilities. The CSPF has in my opinion made many mistakes and took many liberties towards the ABF Teamsters. Does anyone here think that letting yrc sell off their assets and leaving very little for the funds in case yrc ever ceases to become a forward moving enterprise was in our best interest?
Everything they sold off would have been assets for the pension funds and now that is all gone. But who would be the one's to suffer? You guessed it the Rank and File!
We need to stop the BS. This contract is about our very survival. If we have to stand our ground with ABF or the IBT and even the Pension Funds then so be it.
To all you young Brothers if we can not stand for ourselves today what will the future hold for you tomorrow?
Again I am not saying ABF is the BAD GUY! they are a company with bottom line only interest. We are HUMANS and we age and we become ill and we have paid in with OUR TIME and our HEALTH to see that our families and our company be taken care of. So why can't those in charge have the slightest bit of RESPECT for us in our FINAL YEARS OF LIFE! OBLIGATIONS we met ours and now it is up to us to see they meet theirs. YOUR GOT ONE LAST FIGHT LEFT IN ME BROTHER ALWAYS!
Everything they sold off would have been assets for the pension funds and now that is all gone. But who would be the one's to suffer? You guessed it the Rank and File!
We need to stop the BS. This contract is about our very survival. If we have to stand our ground with ABF or the IBT and even the Pension Funds then so be it.
To all you young Brothers if we can not stand for ourselves today what will the future hold for you tomorrow?
Again I am not saying ABF is the BAD GUY! they are a company with bottom line only interest. We are HUMANS and we age and we become ill and we have paid in with OUR TIME and our HEALTH to see that our families and our company be taken care of. So why can't those in charge have the slightest bit of RESPECT for us in our FINAL YEARS OF LIFE! OBLIGATIONS we met ours and now it is up to us to see they meet theirs. YOUR GOT ONE LAST FIGHT LEFT IN ME BROTHER ALWAYS!
nothumbleenough
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So you have great anger at these officials. Does it reason that the ones being punished are both ABF and its employees by increasing the contribution to levels that cannot be sustained in a competitive LTL market where non-union companies do not pay into the pension?
Boilerpeddle
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Just because ABF wants relaxed obligations doesn't mean they will get them. They will get what is negotiated and VOTED on.
If we had good negotiators we might even come out better.
Unfortunately after seeing the language of the yrc give backs I don't think they have any 8th graders left on the negotiating team.
Because 8th graders would have done a much better job.