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XPO | Remember Overnite?

buffalobill said:
so does that still count as a "fly in the union ointment?" does conway offer insurance to retirees?
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I'm curious....Is the Healthcare the Teamsters provide to the retirees totally free? Is it a good plan? Such as low deductibles .....Low office visits co-pays.....Low co-pays on meds....I just want to be clear on this..... Are you telling me that the Teamsters pays 100% of the healthcare premiums for all of its retirees?.....Seems to me I have a friend in the Western Conference that pays $660 a month for him and his wife.....A retired Teamster of 30 years.....But I could be wrong. And I suppose it could be a lie.
 
Snark Monkey said:
I would say he is paying for supplemental insurance to medicaid, and the supplemental went up $15/mo. Once a retiree is eligible for medicaid then your Teamsters insurance ends. You can buy the Teamster supplemental plan if you want.

Most of my family worked for GM all their lives and the UAW plan works the same way. Once you are eligible for medicaid, the UAW insurance ends and you can purchase it as a supplemental if you want.
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I would hope that there aren't many retirees who would qualify for Medicaid. He is probably buying his Medicare Part B supplemental insurance from his union pension and welfare fund and he has the payments automatically deducted from his pension check. An insurance increase of only $15 isn't bad at all considering the medical costs today..............I wonder how much of an increase people using United Healthcare, and Humana etc. for their Part B supplement have to pay?

Sometimes union haters try to twist legitimate deductions and use them to claim that retiree's pensions are being cut. It just a weak anti union attack against our pension funds. With all those anti union attacks on the Teamster's pension funds that have been posted on this website not 1 person has ever been able to show that any fund has ever missed a pension payment. Or that any retiree's gross pension has been reduced other than maybe some sort of adjustable benefits having been cut due to Bush's PPA mandated rehabilitation plans............The ERISA anti cutback rule prohibits cuts from retiree's pensions.
 
runawaytrain said:
I'm curious....Is the Healthcare the Teamsters provide to the retirees totally free? Is it a good plan? Such as low deductibles .....Low office visits co-pays.....Low co-pays on meds....I just want to be clear on this..... Are you telling me that the Teamsters pays 100% of the healthcare premiums for all of its retirees?.....Seems to me I have a friend in the Western Conference that pays $660 a month for him and his wife.....A retired Teamster of 30 years.....But I could be wrong. And I suppose it could be a lie.
Click to expand...

My 2 cents on the subject. I don't know of any Teamsters pension or welfare fund that pay 100% of a retiree's healthcare premium. But that's not to say it isn't true. But I do know of many public employee union retirees who get totally free medical coverage for life. And I do mean total free!!!!

Your retired friend is probably too young to qualify for Medicare and if he is getting their medical coverage from his pension fund for only $600 a month that's a great deal. When I retired 4 years ago at 63 it costing close to $1200 a month through COBRA for the 2 of us until we went on Medicare. Now it cost $146 each for the Teamsters Part B supplement. I checked around and no one could even come close to giving us anything comparable to the BCBS supplemental coverage provided by my pension fund for $146 a month. Especially with our pre-existing conditions.
 
runawaytrain said:
I'm curious....Is the Healthcare the Teamsters provide to the retirees totally free? Is it a good plan? Such as low deductibles .....Low office visits co-pays.....Low co-pays on meds....I just want to be clear on this..... Are you telling me that the Teamsters pays 100% of the healthcare premiums for all of its retirees?.....Seems to me I have a friend in the Western Conference that pays $660 a month for him and his wife.....A retired Teamster of 30 years.....But I could be wrong. And I suppose it could be a lie.
Click to expand...

Wow.....talking about this can go on forever. I can only give a small portion of my opinion.
I was die hard anti union once but understanding the security of the contract totally changed that. It took away the ability for the company to man handle you at will with no recourse from you.
I remember when I was with Conway and didn't pay for insurance. Suddenly everyone had to contribute something for insurance, it was a bitter pill to swallow but understandable knowing that good things like this would not last especially without a contract. Every year something went up at Conway to offset our raises.

When Overnite became Teamsters, getting on the NMFA contract was one of the first things that would not be agreed upon. Those guys don't pay for insurance.
It's very few and far between nowadays with any trucking company to see free insurance. As far as being a retiree and paying for benefits, I know those guys/gals have been bargained for in sustaining some kind of savings rather than increases. You would have to get someone who is retired to chime in. I would think it would be close to the same on either side of the fence. It might even be less.

We consider ourselves the newer teamsters, and if all of Conway becomes Union you guys will most likely be like us too. I seriously doubt Conway will ever give you free insurance when it comes time to bargain. We have to pay a portion of our insurance just like everyone else does now. Our health care is managed by Teamcare which is run by Central State Health and Welfare. It is totally separate from the Central States Pension Fund everyone is so scared about. Remember UPS bought out of Central States Pension Fund and I'm pretty sure Conway will never jump into it.
Without a true comparison, our TeamCare insurance is quite possibly cheaper than the rest of the trucking world minus the guys that pay nothing . We have great coverage, I pay 150.00 a month for my wife and I. Deductables are low and if you use the secondary benefit part of the insurance you can get free things like free MRI, CAT scans, X-rays, Blood work etc. etc. etc. Too much to list.
It's kept low because of contract negotiations every 4 years. Conway can raise your insurance every year, they are great and money manipulation and giving you the illusion they want.

Don't get me wrong. Conway was great to me, they help start my career. They just got out of hand with the many many direction(s) they wanted to take the company and a lot of forensic benefit tweaks. You learn that as you get older and wiser and now the uprising you guys are experiencing is the boil over from all that. Damage control is in full tilt. Black Helicopters are deployed, policy violations write ups from slackers and known pro union people(which will never be revealed) will be at an all time high.

Just consider all the good you guys get now and can negotiate later staying good between contracts and not having the rug pulled from under you all the time without any recourse like it has been for you guys. You will hear a lot of good and a lot of bad choosing either side. In the end, I am glad I became a Teamster. I'm not a slacker by any means, I get the job done just like I did when I was at Conway. I have great customers, most the same. My dues are all tax deductable, but the great thing about being a truck driver now is that my life is that much more comfortable knowing we have a contract.

Which ever you guys go, stay educated on both sides of the argument before you choose a side. Don't go by hearsay.

I know I have missed a bunch more stuff but that's just a little bit of my 2 cents.
 
Crystal said:
My 2 cents on the subject. I don't know of any Teamsters pension or welfare fund that pay 100% of a retiree's healthcare premium. But that's not to say it isn't true. But I do know of many public employee union retirees who get totally free medical coverage for life. And I do mean total free!!!!

Your retired friend is probably too young to qualify for Medicare and if he is getting their medical coverage from his pension fund for only $600 a month that's a great deal. When I retired 4 years ago at 63 it costing close to $1200 a month through COBRA for the 2 of us until we went on Medicare. Now it cost $146 each for the Teamsters Part B supplement. I checked around and no one could even come close to giving us anything comparable to the BCBS supplemental coverage provided by my pension fund for $146 a month. Especially with our pre-existing conditions.
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He was too young.....Thank you for your input.
 
Dockworker said:
Wow.....talking about this can go on forever. I can only give a small portion of my opinion.
I was die hard anti union once but understanding the security of the contract totally changed that. It took away the ability for the company to man handle you at will with no recourse from you.
I remember when I was with Conway and didn't pay for insurance. Suddenly everyone had to contribute something for insurance, it was a bitter pill to swallow but understandable knowing that good things like this would not last especially without a contract. Every year something went up at Conway to offset our raises.

When Overnite became Teamsters, getting on the NMFA contract was one of the first things that would not be agreed upon. Those guys don't pay for insurance.
It's very few and far between nowadays with any trucking company to see free insurance. As far as being a retiree and paying for benefits, I know those guys/gals have been bargained for in sustaining some kind of savings rather than increases. You would have to get someone who is retired to chime in. I would think it would be close to the same on either side of the fence. It might even be less.

We consider ourselves the newer teamsters, and if all of Conway becomes Union you guys will most likely be like us too. I seriously doubt Conway will ever give you free insurance when it comes time to bargain. We have to pay a portion of our insurance just like everyone else does now. Our health care is managed by Teamcare which is run by Central State Health and Welfare. It is totally separate from the Central States Pension Fund everyone is so scared about. Remember UPS bought out of Central States Pension Fund and I'm pretty sure Conway will never jump into it.
Without a true comparison, our TeamCare insurance is quite possibly cheaper than the rest of the trucking world minus the guys that pay nothing . We have great coverage, I pay 150.00 a month for my wife and I. Deductables are low and if you use the secondary benefit part of the insurance you can get free things like free MRI, CAT scans, X-rays, Blood work etc. etc. etc. Too much to list.
It's kept low because of contract negotiations every 4 years. Conway can raise your insurance every year, they are great and money manipulation and giving you the illusion they want.

Don't get me wrong. Conway was great to me, they help start my career. They just got out of hand with the many many direction(s) they wanted to take the company and a lot of forensic benefit tweaks. You learn that as you get older and wiser and now the uprising you guys are experiencing is the boil over from all that. Damage control is in full tilt. Black Helicopters are deployed, policy violations write ups from slackers and known pro union people(which will never be revealed) will be at an all time high.

Just consider all the good you guys get now and can negotiate later staying good between contracts and not having the rug pulled from under you all the time without any recourse like it has been for you guys. You will hear a lot of good and a lot of bad choosing either side. In the end, I am glad I became a Teamster. I'm not a slacker by any means, I get the job done just like I did when I was at Conway. I have great customers, most the same. My dues are all tax deductable, but the great thing about being a truck driver now is that my life is that much more comfortable knowing we have a contract.

Which ever you guys go, stay educated on both sides of the argument before you choose a side. Don't go by hearsay.

I know I have missed a bunch more stuff but that's just a little bit of my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
Great post. I agree.
 
Dockworker said:
Wow.....talking about this can go on forever. I can only give a small portion of my opinion.
I was die hard anti union once but understanding the security of the contract totally changed that. It took away the ability for the company to man handle you at will with no recourse from you.
I remember when I was with Conway and didn't pay for insurance. Suddenly everyone had to contribute something for insurance, it was a bitter pill to swallow but understandable knowing that good things like this would not last especially without a contract. Every year something went up at Conway to offset our raises.

When Overnite became Teamsters, getting on the NMFA contract was one of the first things that would not be agreed upon. Those guys don't pay for insurance.
It's very few and far between nowadays with any trucking company to see free insurance. As far as being a retiree and paying for benefits, I know those guys/gals have been bargained for in sustaining some kind of savings rather than increases. You would have to get someone who is retired to chime in. I would think it would be close to the same on either side of the fence. It might even be less.

We consider ourselves the newer teamsters, and if all of Conway becomes Union you guys will most likely be like us too. I seriously doubt Conway will ever give you free insurance when it comes time to bargain. We have to pay a portion of our insurance just like everyone else does now. Our health care is managed by Teamcare which is run by Central State Health and Welfare. It is totally separate from the Central States Pension Fund everyone is so scared about. Remember UPS bought out of Central States Pension Fund and I'm pretty sure Conway will never jump into it.
Without a true comparison, our TeamCare insurance is quite possibly cheaper than the rest of the trucking world minus the guys that pay nothing . We have great coverage, I pay 150.00 a month for my wife and I. Deductables are low and if you use the secondary benefit part of the insurance you can get free things like free MRI, CAT scans, X-rays, Blood work etc. etc. etc. Too much to list.
It's kept low because of contract negotiations every 4 years. Conway can raise your insurance every year, they are great and money manipulation and giving you the illusion they want.

Don't get me wrong. Conway was great to me, they help start my career. They just got out of hand with the many many direction(s) they wanted to take the company and a lot of forensic benefit tweaks. You learn that as you get older and wiser and now the uprising you guys are experiencing is the boil over from all that. Damage control is in full tilt. Black Helicopters are deployed, policy violations write ups from slackers and known pro union people(which will never be revealed) will be at an all time high.

Just consider all the good you guys get now and can negotiate later staying good between contracts and not having the rug pulled from under you all the time without any recourse like it has been for you guys. You will hear a lot of good and a lot of bad choosing either side. In the end, I am glad I became a Teamster. I'm not a slacker by any means, I get the job done just like I did when I was at Conway. I have great customers, most the same. My dues are all tax deductable, but the great thing about being a truck driver now is that my life is that much more comfortable knowing we have a contract.

Which ever you guys go, stay educated on both sides of the argument before you choose a side. Don't go by hearsay.

I know I have missed a bunch more stuff but that's just a little bit of my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
Healthcare at Saia is $12 weekly for employee only.....25.50 for employee + 1 dependent.....37.50 for entire family.......$250 annual deductible not to exceed $500 for covered family members.....$25 office visits....Pharmacy $15 generic...$30 name brand.....They cover blood work ....MRI's.....in full as well....We don't receive all those little side bills either .....For employees with 10 years of service the Healthcare is free....Two weeks vacation after 2 years...Saia has a full match in the 401K plan up to 6%.........Saia pays overtime after 45 which is a compromise....Many LTL companies don't pay it until 50....55....or even 60........The company gets a little while we also get a little.....That's how you run a successful LTL company union free....Compromise....Saia doesn't make you work the dock unless you want to.........They look the other way with petty BS......Writing you up is a last resort.....The only thing they are strict about is accidents for drivers....And puncturing totes or drums if your a dock worker.....You tear up things and you won't last here......Saia does not need a union because upper level management understand that if you treat your people well the rest will take care of itself......Conway does not get that....And now after all that I have read on here and have heard on the streets from their drivers they need the Teamsters.....Not all LTL carriers do.....IMO......But Conway does .....And they brought it all on themselves.
 
runawaytrain said:
Healthcare at Saia is $12 weekly for employee only.....25.50 for employee + 1 dependent.....37.50 for entire family.......$250 annual deductible not to exceed $500 for covered family members.....$25 office visits....Pharmacy $15 generic...$30 name brand.....They cover blood work ....MRI's.....in full as well....We don't receive all those little side bills either .....For employees with 10 years of service the Healthcare is free....Two weeks vacation after 2 years...Saia has a full match in the 401K plan up to 6%.........Saia pays overtime after 45 which is a compromise....Many LTL companies don't pay it until 50....55....or even 60........The company gets a little while we also get a little.....That's how you run a successful LTL company union free....Compromise....Saia doesn't make you work the dock unless you want to.........They look the other way with petty BS......Writing you up is a last resort.....The only thing they are strict about is accidents for drivers....And puncturing totes or drums if your a dock worker.....You tear up things and you won't last here......Saia does not need a union because upper level management understand that if you treat your people well the rest will take care of itself......Conway does not get that....And now after all that I have read on here and have heard on the streets from their drivers they need the Teamsters.....Not all LTL carriers do.....IMO......But Conway does .....And they brought it all on themselves.
Click to expand...
I just finished my week of training for Saia and it didn't take very long at all to figure out that their culture is totally opposite that of Con-Job's.
 
runawaytrain said:
Healthcare at Saia is $12 for employee only.....25.50 for employee + 1 dependent.....37.50 for entire family.......$250 annual deductible not to exceed $500 for covered family members.....$25 office visits....Pharmacy $15 generic...$30 name brand.....They cover blood work ....MRI's.....in full as well....We don't receive all those little side bills either .....For employees with 10 years of service the Healthcare is free....Saia has a full match in the 401K plan up to 6%.........Saia pays overtime after 45 which is a compromise....Many LTL companies don't pay it until 50....55....or even 60........The company gets a little while we also get a little.....That's how you run a successful LTL company union free....Compromise....Saia doesn't make you work the dock unless you want to.........They look the other way with petty BS......Writing you up is a last resort.....The only thing they are strict about is accidents for drivers....And puncturing totes or drums if your a dock worker.....You tear up things and you won't last here......Saia does not need a union because upper level management understand that if you treat your people well the rest will take care of itself......Conway does not get that....And now after all that I have read on here and have heard on the streets from their drivers they need the Teamsters.....Not all LTL carriers do.....IMO......But Conway does .....And they brought it all on themselves.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Saia guys seem happy, sure they could use more but the ones I talk to seem happy.
I don't even now why I concern myself with this but I do wish the Conway drivers well and that they all can reach some sort of understanding to move forward.

Conway used to be very competitive, who knows they might be. Back in the day, they were the top non-union carrier when it came to benefits and pay, they closely mimicked union pay and benefits to keep unionization out. It was the best family atmosphere you could ask for. People flocked to them for employment. You walk into a customer and they pretty much bowed down to you like they do UPS. I'm sure some senior members will remember those days.

That slowly eroded after Detter was forced to resign. New management, too many new ideas, too many new directions only tripped up upper management. While they were pursuing the latest and greatest form of micromanagement and technology, the competition that chugged along and shared and compromised surpassed Conway. Takeaway after takeaway after takeaway only got them one thing. Very angry workers with very low morale. Some could leave some were binded by their financial obligations and could not afford a change.
I know for a fact they lost a lot of very good top notch drivers to the competition. Some people believed it was a systematic way to slowly let go of the top pay drivers in lieu of a low scale work force.

I remember back in the day when the Midwest was threatening unionization. It was a very big issue when XGO swarmed in, holding hotel meetings, asking lower management to keep an eye on any driver mentioning unions activity and for them to report back to them. It was an ugly situation.
Things looked promising for the what the Midwest drivers were going to accomplish, the Teamsters were all ready for this. I may be spilling the beans a bit with this statement but XGO knew this already. "Shut down the Midwest so freight could not be properly diverted in a timely manner" "Terminals could not be closed and worked out of the next closest barn"

When the time came they all chickened out. That was an embarrassing fiasco for the drivers, the Teamsters never again took the Midwest seriously. They still welcome them with open arms as long as they prove they are ready.
Now that LLA has put their foot down and helped prop open that door, what will the Midwest do? If I'm a betting man, absolutely nothing. If they did make a stand it would probably become a domino effect just like it was when UPS left the door open for us.

When it comes time for termination they look into your file and all they see are write ups. You actually get suspended first but you are pretty much terminated. It's very very very rare to ever get your job back at this point. It's designed to make you feel there is hope but the deck is already stacked against you, so this becomes a nice private show between the TM, FOM and anyone else in that conference call, of mentally torturing you in hopes you start crying and begging for your job back. They over look the good stuff, they just focus on write ups.... all the bad....you are a bad boy, a very very bad boy....how could you do such a thing....you now it is not tolerated by Conway......suspension upheld you are terminated driver..now get out of the office and take that walk of shame!.

You can do 100 good things and the only thing they focus on is the bad. You can say the same thing to management now. They can do 100 good things(reinstate some bonus, cookouts, raise, overtime after 8 etc) but the only thing the drivers will focus on are the bad. (Takeaway after takeaway, forensic accounting, manipulating your money, illusion that you are better off now than your were back than) Compromise is not even a vocabulary word for Conway.


I love this topic.........lots of mental flashbacks...carry on and Good luck to you all.
 
Dockworker said:
I totally agree. Saia guys seem happy, sure they could use more but the ones I talk to seem happy.
I don't even now why I concern myself with this but I do wish the Conway drivers well and that they all can reach some sort of understanding to move forward.

Conway used to be very competitive, who knows they might be. Back in the day, they were the top non-union carrier when it came to benefits and pay, they closely mimicked union pay and benefits to keep unionization out. It was the best family atmosphere you could ask for. People flocked to them for employment. You walk into a customer and they pretty much bowed down to you like they do UPS. I'm sure some senior members will remember those days.

That slowly eroded after Detter was forced to resign. New management, too many new ideas, too many new directions only tripped up upper management. While they were pursuing the latest and greatest form of micromanagement and technology, the competition that chugged along and shared and compromised surpassed Conway. Takeaway after takeaway after takeaway only got them one thing. Very angry workers with very low morale. Some could leave some were binded by their financial obligations and could not afford a change.
I know for a fact they lost a lot of very good top notch drivers to the competition. Some people believed it was a systematic way to slowly let go of the top pay drivers in lieu of a low scale work force.

I remember back in the day when the Midwest was threatening unionization. It was a very big issue when XGO swarmed in, holding hotel meetings, asking lower management to keep an eye on any driver mentioning unions activity and for them to report back to them. It was an ugly situation.
Things looked promising for the what the Midwest drivers were going to accomplish, the Teamsters were all ready for this. I may be spilling the beans a bit with this statement but XGO knew this already. "Shut down the Midwest so freight could not be properly diverted in a timely manner" "Terminals could not be closed and worked out of the next closest barn"

When the time came they all chickened out. That was an embarrassing fiasco for the drivers, the Teamsters never again took the Midwest seriously. They still welcome them with open arms as long as they prove they are ready.
Now that LLA has put their foot down and helped prop open that door, what will the Midwest do? If I'm a betting man, absolutely nothing. If they did make a stand it would probably become a domino effect just like it was when UPS left the door open for us.

When it comes time for termination they look into your file and all they see are write ups. You actually get suspended first but you are pretty much terminated. It's very very very rare to ever get your job back at this point. It's designed to make you feel there is hope but the deck is already stacked against you, so this becomes a nice private show between the TM, FOM and anyone else in that conference call, of mentally torturing you in hopes you start crying and begging for your job back. They over look the good stuff, they just focus on write ups.... all the bad....you are a bad boy, a very very bad boy....how could you do such a thing....you now it is not tolerated by Conway......suspension upheld you are terminated driver..now get out of the office and take that walk of shame!.

You can do 100 good things and the only thing they focus on is the bad. You can say the same thing to management now. They can do 100 good things(reinstate some bonus, cookouts, raise, overtime after 8 etc) but the only thing the drivers will focus on are the bad. (Takeaway after takeaway, forensic accounting, manipulating your money, illusion that you are better off now than your were back than) Compromise is not even a vocabulary word for Conway.


I love this topic.........lots of mental flashbacks...carry on and Good luck to you all.
Click to expand...

Customer last. A winning approach. That's what they say.

Union don't bother XGO. They have killed off a union before.

Drivers have no value to this company. We only bring them problems and cost them money.
 
Dockworker said:
I totally agree. Saia guys seem happy, sure they could use more but the ones I talk to seem happy.
I don't even now why I concern myself with this but I do wish the Conway drivers well and that they all can reach some sort of understanding to move forward.

Conway used to be very competitive, who knows they might be. Back in the day, they were the top non-union carrier when it came to benefits and pay, they closely mimicked union pay and benefits to keep unionization out. It was the best family atmosphere you could ask for. People flocked to them for employment. You walk into a customer and they pretty much bowed down to you like they do UPS. I'm sure some senior members will remember those days.

That slowly eroded after Detter was forced to resign. New management, too many new ideas, too many new directions only tripped up upper management. While they were pursuing the latest and greatest form of micromanagement and technology, the competition that chugged along and shared and compromised surpassed Conway. Takeaway after takeaway after takeaway only got them one thing. Very angry workers with very low morale. Some could leave some were binded by their financial obligations and could not afford a change.
I know for a fact they lost a lot of very good top notch drivers to the competition. Some people believed it was a systematic way to slowly let go of the top pay drivers in lieu of a low scale work force.

I remember back in the day when the Midwest was threatening unionization. It was a very big issue when XGO swarmed in, holding hotel meetings, asking lower management to keep an eye on any driver mentioning unions activity and for them to report back to them. It was an ugly situation.
Things looked promising for the what the Midwest drivers were going to accomplish, the Teamsters were all ready for this. I may be spilling the beans a bit with this statement but XGO knew this already. "Shut down the Midwest so freight could not be properly diverted in a timely manner" "Terminals could not be closed and worked out of the next closest barn"

When the time came they all chickened out. That was an embarrassing fiasco for the drivers, the Teamsters never again took the Midwest seriously. They still welcome them with open arms as long as they prove they are ready.
Now that LLA has put their foot down and helped prop open that door, what will the Midwest do? If I'm a betting man, absolutely nothing. If they did make a stand it would probably become a domino effect just like it was when UPS left the door open for us.

When it comes time for termination they look into your file and all they see are write ups. You actually get suspended first but you are pretty much terminated. It's very very very rare to ever get your job back at this point. It's designed to make you feel there is hope but the deck is already stacked against you, so this becomes a nice private show between the TM, FOM and anyone else in that conference call, of mentally torturing you in hopes you start crying and begging for your job back. They over look the good stuff, they just focus on write ups.... all the bad....you are a bad boy, a very very bad boy....how could you do such a thing....you now it is not tolerated by Conway......suspension upheld you are terminated driver..now get out of the office and take that walk of shame!.

You can do 100 good things and the only thing they focus on is the bad. You can say the same thing to management now. They can do 100 good things(reinstate some bonus, cookouts, raise, overtime after 8 etc) but the only thing the drivers will focus on are the bad. (Takeaway after takeaway, forensic accounting, manipulating your money, illusion that you are better off now than your were back than) Compromise is not even a vocabulary word for Conway.


I love this topic.........lots of mental flashbacks...carry on and Good luck to you all.
Click to expand...
I nominate this post for "post of the year" in the Conway forum.....Excellent !!!
 
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