With the news of more troubles at YRC, I'm just wondering if anyone else is thinking maybe ABF better get out of the multi-employer pension system while the getting is good? If (heaven forbid) something bad were to happen to YRC, ABF could be busted by the huge liability... Tell me what you all think.
ABF | Should ABF get out now?
- Thread starter grovercxl
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abf will only become busted if they have to pay that huge withdrawal liability and that will only occur if they withdraw from the fund
my guess is if it gets to be an enormous figure they will drain the company dry and claim bankruptcy then they pay almost nothing
their contributions will increase but that only
comes up contract time when it is negotiated. let's say they sign on to this contract and yrc goes belly up that will give them until 2013 to react
and react they will
prediction all of a sudden abf will go from a highly profitable company to a dog practically overnight
a lot can happen
another solution is for them to stop pushing for a 10-15 yr paydown of that liability and put up the cash like ups did
then maybe the IBT will let them out
everyone gets what they want
we get ours and they get what they want
only difference being it is not the way they would have liked to withdraw
too bad, why should we take a chance to get screwed
i say PUT UP OR SHUT UP ABF!!!!!!
:gathering:oh i almost forgot
abf is one of the primary reasons these funds are hurting
you ask how?
answer: the main solution to a fix for these funds are twofold
1-influx of cash
how do we get that ?
a- thru contract negotiations
we got a record increase this contract and a new record increase in the tentative deal
that only buys some time and is not a total fix, it certainly helps
b- new participants
how do we get new participants?
ABF has to stop giving away our freight to cartage
ABF has to stop forcing excessive overtime down our throats and put guys on layoff back to work
ABF has to halt its attritionary practices and finally ABF has to hire some new people in terminals where there are no layoffs and overtime is excessive
excessive would be more than 10 hours per week
i think JC would have trouble getting hired at ABF
this also applies to the YRC companies as well
they are also guilty of some of these practices if not all
put it together and i think the funds affected would not post such a dire bottom line as it now stands
sounds easy doesn't it
abf is one of the primary reasons these funds are hurting
you ask how?
answer: the main solution to a fix for these funds are twofold
1-influx of cash
how do we get that ?
a- thru contract negotiations
we got a record increase this contract and a new record increase in the tentative deal
that only buys some time and is not a total fix, it certainly helps
b- new participants
how do we get new participants?
ABF has to stop giving away our freight to cartage
ABF has to stop forcing excessive overtime down our throats and put guys on layoff back to work
ABF has to halt its attritionary practices and finally ABF has to hire some new people in terminals where there are no layoffs and overtime is excessive
excessive would be more than 10 hours per week
i think JC would have trouble getting hired at ABF
this also applies to the YRC companies as well
they are also guilty of some of these practices if not all
put it together and i think the funds affected would not post such a dire bottom line as it now stands
sounds easy doesn't it
Pension Funds
Probably the younger employees would have a better retirement from an ABF only pension. The company would be able to pay only ABF employees instead of others from companies that are no longer in business & not paying into the funds.
If the fund that ABF is proposing is a real pension fund & under the oversight of a board much like the fund now there would be little chance for the company "borrowing" from the fund like other corporations have done in the past.
I have mixed emotions about the whole pension buyout proposal. I am delaying retirement until I know more about who will provide my pension.
I don't want to bail out & leave the current retirees with a reduced pension. But I know that YRC has debt & ABF doesn't. ABF is in a better position to provide a pension for it's employees.
The best way to fund the current pension plan is to organize & have more paying into the fund. We have all seen the long list of former teamster employers that are no longer in business. It's not our fault that they went out of business other than doing our jobs & serving customers in a way that maintained a customer base & attracted new customers.
We have been fortunate to have an innovative employer that wanted to stay in business & planned years ahead.
I don't wish YRC employees any bad luck, in fact I hope that the management team can find a way to make the company more profitable.
I don't see how ABF can be denied the same opportunity as UPS to withdraw from the pension funds if they can fund it as they claim.
To sum it up I am still undecided about the contract & the pension fund proposal. In the past I had made my decision on how to vote after reading the contract changes.
Probably the younger employees would have a better retirement from an ABF only pension. The company would be able to pay only ABF employees instead of others from companies that are no longer in business & not paying into the funds.
If the fund that ABF is proposing is a real pension fund & under the oversight of a board much like the fund now there would be little chance for the company "borrowing" from the fund like other corporations have done in the past.
I have mixed emotions about the whole pension buyout proposal. I am delaying retirement until I know more about who will provide my pension.
I don't want to bail out & leave the current retirees with a reduced pension. But I know that YRC has debt & ABF doesn't. ABF is in a better position to provide a pension for it's employees.
The best way to fund the current pension plan is to organize & have more paying into the fund. We have all seen the long list of former teamster employers that are no longer in business. It's not our fault that they went out of business other than doing our jobs & serving customers in a way that maintained a customer base & attracted new customers.
We have been fortunate to have an innovative employer that wanted to stay in business & planned years ahead.
I don't wish YRC employees any bad luck, in fact I hope that the management team can find a way to make the company more profitable.
I don't see how ABF can be denied the same opportunity as UPS to withdraw from the pension funds if they can fund it as they claim.
To sum it up I am still undecided about the contract & the pension fund proposal. In the past I had made my decision on how to vote after reading the contract changes.
Here is what I know. I know that we are all sick and tired of the executive floor of this company trying to sell us the withdrawal from our current pension plan. The proper venue for this is at the bargaining table with our elected Union officials. We are also sick and tired of being unlawfully beat up, physically, and mentally. The STAA rules are going to be enforced, as well as the FMCSA rules, that forbid management from disciplining drivers who notify the company that they are sick, or fatigued. Motions will be forthcoming filed Pro Se, in the proper venues, with a remarkable amount of testimony and physical evidence (letters) to prove our case.
It seems as if this company has the only truck driving job on planet earth worth a dang. Well as they say in my neighborhood, I was looking for a good job when I settled for this one.
Having said all of that and pardon me for sounding off here, but do I feel flexible enough to give into the company for any sort of concession, pension or otherwise? The answer is, HELL NO.
The difference between ABF and UPS is simple. UPS paid the withdrawal liability and replaced the pension plan with a fully funded plan. ABF has never to my knowledge, offered a replacement for the multi-employer plans in place.
Penson Funding
In my post I said IF ABF can fund a pension fund as they CLAIM. I have yet to see what the company has to offer & that is why I have not decided how I will vote if a fund like UPS employees got is available to us.
As I have said in the past I don't trust corporations. That is why we have a contract. A company can promise anything then get amnesia when pay & benefit increases are due if the employees have no way to enforce the agreement.
I have much at stake on this contract. In fact my decison on retirement rests on the outcome of these negotiations. I certainly won't vote to give away all that I have worked for all these years or abandon my teamster brothers.
It's OK to vent frustrations. I think that most of us are on edge from all that is going on with this contract. I think that the future of this company & even to some extent the future of the teamster's role in the freight industry rests on this contract.
In my post I said IF ABF can fund a pension fund as they CLAIM. I have yet to see what the company has to offer & that is why I have not decided how I will vote if a fund like UPS employees got is available to us.
As I have said in the past I don't trust corporations. That is why we have a contract. A company can promise anything then get amnesia when pay & benefit increases are due if the employees have no way to enforce the agreement.
I have much at stake on this contract. In fact my decison on retirement rests on the outcome of these negotiations. I certainly won't vote to give away all that I have worked for all these years or abandon my teamster brothers.
It's OK to vent frustrations. I think that most of us are on edge from all that is going on with this contract. I think that the future of this company & even to some extent the future of the teamster's role in the freight industry rests on this contract.
At this juncture we are not voting on a done deal contract. Simply the National language, and the supplemental language.
If ABF negotiates anything contrary or different, (i.e. pension, H&W, work rules, etc.) we will vote on that later, on a separate ballot.
Contract Vote
I understand that but I have not decided how I will vote on the NMFC. I also don't know how I will vote if in fact ABF does get a seperate agreement. I WILL vote as I have ALWAYS done. I will mail my ballot in time for it to be counted.
The language in the garage supplement doesn't have all the changes that I wanted. But no contract has ever had all that I wanted especially seniority rights. I can live with it even though it's not exactly what I wanted.
I may have gotten off topic since this thread started with ABF getting out of the pension fund.
I understand that but I have not decided how I will vote on the NMFC. I also don't know how I will vote if in fact ABF does get a seperate agreement. I WILL vote as I have ALWAYS done. I will mail my ballot in time for it to be counted.
The language in the garage supplement doesn't have all the changes that I wanted. But no contract has ever had all that I wanted especially seniority rights. I can live with it even though it's not exactly what I wanted.
I may have gotten off topic since this thread started with ABF getting out of the pension fund.
Yeah DCM, I know exactly what you are saying. There was about 4 major things on my wish list that didn't happen.
Does the Garage Supplement override seniority language in the NMFA?
I have never seen a Garage Supplement.
Garage Supplement
Yes Mikey, there are some parts of the garage supplement that allow the company to bypass seniority rights. An example is leadman position that doesn't require the company to go by seniority. The pay is more & the contract lets the employer use it's discretion when choosing a leadman.
Guess what? If you have ever filed a greviance or don't
then you don't get the opportunity to be a leadman. A good way to get the extra pay is to work at the boss' deer camp & tidy up the place.
One thing that this contract does do is require the company to give mechanics a tool allowance. But it will be three years before that happens & then it is only $100.
That is a start but it is many years too late.
Oh well, we will never get a dream contract but if we had not have fought through the years we would have nothing.
Yes Mikey, there are some parts of the garage supplement that allow the company to bypass seniority rights. An example is leadman position that doesn't require the company to go by seniority. The pay is more & the contract lets the employer use it's discretion when choosing a leadman.
Guess what? If you have ever filed a greviance or don't
then you don't get the opportunity to be a leadman. A good way to get the extra pay is to work at the boss' deer camp & tidy up the place.One thing that this contract does do is require the company to give mechanics a tool allowance. But it will be three years before that happens & then it is only $100.
That is a start but it is many years too late.
Oh well, we will never get a dream contract but if we had not have fought through the years we would have nothing.
Dirk_Diggler
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Why is it ABF's job to keep pumping more money into these funds? Why isn't it the union's responsibility to organize more workers? That is what will make these funds more stable.
it is
it is like the hours of service rules
it is a shared responsibility
i agree ever since deregulation the union was very complacent on organizing so now with the expiring of the many TMI companies it has come back to bite us in the ***
as much as the union was complacent the companies do whatever they can to evade paying H&W
this serves to increase their liability as the fund grows weaker
sort of pennywise and dollar foolish
In reality, more members would make things appear better only in the short term. But like a pyramid scheme, sooner or later you are bound to have a situation like we have now, with more people on the retiree end than on the contribution end. This type of thing just is not viable in the long term. Just ask the auto workers. They are getting to the same point. Or you could look at Social Security, where the number of people paying in per retiree keeps going down. Pyramids only work as long as you have a very large pool of new members, and sooner or later, even if you signed up every driver in America, you would run out of new people to bring in on the ground floor.
DCM_Doc, there is a huge difference in what UPS did and what ABF wants to do.
Ups made a one time payment of 6.1 billion to CS to buy their way out. ABF's plan is to get out now and make the withdrawal payments for 20 years.
Why should the union finance ABF's plan?
Dirk_Diggler
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Exactly so why should we want to stay in these MEPF's?
imported_Double barrel
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We should stay for the retirement that has been paying out benefits for many years. We could get are time in at many differance employer's.This job is only a great job as long as they pay into the MEPF.
I don't understand how anyone can compare the MEPF to a pyramid scheme. Every dollar that a retiree receives is a dollar that was put into the fund 25 or 30 plus years ago. That money was paid by the employers in lieu of cash in our paychecks. Those dollars have been sitting in the funds building interest. Not being paid out to earlier retirees like Social Security or a "pryamid scheme".
If the MEPFs are like a pyramid then how can anyone explain the success of some funds which are fully funded & have so much money that they have to issue a 13th check to their retirees or return the excess money?
I won't sit here & pretend that I understand the complex issues of economics, finance & investment, but IMO in answer to the poll I will say yes, it may be time for ABF to get out of the MEPF funds. But only if they make a lump sum payment of their withdrawal liability & start up a funded SEPF like UPS did....I'm not for any type of 401 program, but for some type of single employer fund ran jointly by ABF & the Teamsters under the federal pension laws.
I am 60 so a SEPF wouldn't be of any interest to me , but with the new pension laws that just went into effect this month requiring that all MEPFs come up with a plan to reach 100% funding, then an ABF withdrawal just might be a big help to some of the funds.
But like I said, I don't know squat about investment & finance
I am 60 so a SEPF wouldn't be of any interest to me , but with the new pension laws that just went into effect this month requiring that all MEPFs come up with a plan to reach 100% funding, then an ABF withdrawal just might be a big help to some of the funds.
But like I said, I don't know squat about investment & finance
Sounds like a management position to me. Maybe the leadman needs to have someone to lead. If you all tell him to shove off he might change his mind about being an arse hole Or maybe he needs a withdrawal card while acting as a manager. Sounds like kind of being a company steward eh?