Social Security...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by a9faninnc, Nov 14, 2014.

  1. a9faninnc

    a9faninnc Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I already pay into a government ponzi scheme called social security.Dont think I wanna pay into another one...I wish all the trucking geezers the best,but I cant afford to support them the rest of their lives..
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  2. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    So for 77 years Social Security has provided seniors and those with disability's a chance to live, eat and stay warm.
    You call that a Ponzi scheme ?
    Maybe you should ask your parents what they think of Social Security.
     
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  3. a9faninnc

    a9faninnc Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Just like myself,if my parents were allowed to put that SS they paid in for themselves,for the years they worked,their payouts of their own money would be much greater than what they get now.Also,the future of SS,much like some pensions,are in much jeopardy by the time my retirement years come around..More young people are mooching on SS,that have only paid in a minimum in the life but will draw it for the rest of their lives.Hell yea,its a government sponsored ponzi for the elderly and welfare for the young.
     
  4. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any concrete proof that your parents ( or your ) return would be greater ?
    No, that is again only an opinion. ( Speculation on returns, such as mutual funds, or even bank accounts is unpredictable and is merely a possibility, but not a guarantee of return. )
    The facts are most people won't save ( or can't ) for retirement, in any way. That is a proven fact. Ask around to see how many fellow co-workers don't save anything.
    The Social Security program benefits all people, including those you feel may not be entitled.
    Who again is supposed to determine that ? You ?
    As for the future of Social Security, don't listen to as much propaganda and instead focus on what could be done to set this program on stable footing for the next hundred years.
    Raise the wage contribution limit. Instead of cutting off tax collection on wage earners after they earn $118,500., lift the cap.
    It doubt it would affect any on this board, yet the working middle class are the main contributors, and it will fix the funding problem.
    You spoke of the jeopardy these funds are in, yet we have decades left to make some easy fixes.

    http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n3/v70n3p111.html

    I don't think even you could deny that tens of millions of people, ( possibly ) hundreds of millions, have benefited from Social Security.
    To call the program a Ponzi scheme is harmful and an insult to those who survive on it alone.
    The go it alone crowd can never have what is provided in the safety of the Social Security program now.
     
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  5. a9faninnc

    a9faninnc Super Moderator Staff Member

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    1. Ponzi scheme

      Houghton Mifflin
      • n.noun
        1. A fraud disguised as an investment opportunity, in which initial investors and the perpetrators of the fraud are paid out of funds raised from later investors, and the later investors lose all funds invested.

      • Give me my earned money and i,ll create my own security.
     
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  6. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    That is where your thought process is wrong.
    Social Security is not an investment opportunity. It is an insurance against us ( the taxpayer ) funding a society of people that cannot do ( or save ) for themselves.
    Example: A large proportion of the members of that society becoming dependent on society for its support--without resources of its own.
    The program has been successful and will continue to be.
    You are welcome to crate additional security on your own, like an IRA, 401K plan or an employer sponsored pension.
    However, for you to disavow the Social Security system on your own won't happen. The 55 plus million people on Social Security won't let it happen.
    It is for the benefit of all.
    Unfortunately, you are a very small minority that thinks otherwise.
     
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  7. a9faninnc

    a9faninnc Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Put it in individual accounts and freeze it to retirement age.My taxes already support enough of entitled America.Why should my "retirement donations" do the same??
     
  8. Bubba74

    Bubba74 Well-Known Member

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    the rate of return on Social Security is negative. Thus putting your money in a savings account that pays .25% would be a better rate of return. That said the history of the stock market is an average of 10% thus, yes they would have done better

    http://www.stockpickssystem.com/historical-rate-of-return/

    legally, it is a tax. The government cannot sell nor force us to buy insurance (remember the Roberts argument on BarryCare) So, the govt taxes us 12.5% and our employer 12.5%, gives us a promise to pay note and spends the money before it actually gets it.
    Since social security relies on the people paying today to cover the payments to the people currently retired, it fits the definition of a Ponzi Scheme. With outstanding obligations, more people taking out and fewer people paying in, it will eventually collapse

    What I find funny is that Social Security is always about to run out of money or will become insolvent on this date or that date, despite the tens of billions paid in each and every year. Yet, all other welfare programs that are not paid into specifically by the citizens are never in fear of going broke. Always plenty of money for food stamps or welfare, etc.....
     
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  9. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    I will disagree with that statement.
    Your rate of individual return is incumbent on your own life span.
    All is not equal, therefore a "rate" of return is not a feasible argument.
    Same as the stock market average is 10%, but how many people make more and how many make less, in some cases, much less ?

    I will use myself as a prime example.
    In all my working years ( paying into S.S. since 1967 ) I, and my employers, have paid into the plan around $175,000.
    At my current monthly payment, I will exceed that amount in 7 years.
    If I live another 10 years past that I will have collected almost 500K.

    If that money was put into my own account, the savings return could have averaged less then 3%. What was the average rate of return in 1970 ?
    In other words, low rate of return in early years will not allow the compounding of numbers you seem to expect in later years.




    Yes, it is a tax. My statement was meant to say that it is not an investment, but something "like" insurance for old age survivors.
    As for plenty of money for food stamps or welfare, if your not in those programs, how would you know specifically ?
    There has been massive cuts to those programs already. No cuts to Social Security ... yet.
    I still contend that if you ask a majority of the people you work with if they are saving anything besides what is required ( or what the employer ) gives them, you will be surprised at the lack of interest or the availability of extra money to save.
    That is the reason for a system that forces the public to contribute, along with the employer.
    The system has worked for over 70 years.
    Ponzi schemes might last several years.
    Social Security is not Bernie Madoff in steroids.
    It's a well run program designed to help the general tax paying public.
     
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  10. kboomarang

    kboomarang My allah, between pie and mode

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    Lets be clear here, Social Security funds aren't like pension fund contributions that are invested to increase their overall value and sustain the principle, they are dumped into the general fund and spent, the lockbox that is always championed is nothing more than a file cabinet full of government iou's, iou's that are paid by selling interest paying bonds, a negative return, kinda "ponzi-sh"... oh yeah, because it robs "young Peter" to pay "old Paul" because "old Pauls" money was never invested for growth....ala ponzi scheme, ala pyramid scheme! Another thing that has happened the program has morphed into an extension of the welfare program through the unsustianable growth in disability payments to many who have not contributed but just shifted from unemployment or welfare to disability. Do think I Social Security will run out money no, it will keep getting funded, but what is going to happen and soon is the number of workers to retiree (currently about 2/1) will go upside down, then you see the cuts.
     
  11. Bubba74

    Bubba74 Well-Known Member

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    you can, that was a snap shot of the entire 20th century
    over the course of that 100 year period, the ARR of the stock market was 10%
    That is math

    average RoR in the 1970's was almost 6%
    in the 1980's while you were still working 17.5%
    in the 1990s' 18.1%

    you would be a multi millionaire by now

    no cuts, sure one can live on $1400/mth with no COLA like the first few years of the Barry Administration
    or having the benefits taxed like Clinton did

    it is in the fact that the government through threat of force makes you pay.
    You don't pay your taxes you go to jail.
    Maddoff had to find willing "suckers" our govt creates them via threat of force.
     
  12. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    Good math, but not what really happened.
    See the next statement.
    I started my IRA account in 1975 and was told then I would be a millionaire when I retired.
    NOT !
    Anyone that has invested with the Wall Street thieves know the ups and downs of the system.

    You & I are average working class people. It just doesn't happen, otherwise we would all be millionaires, or at least you would be.
    I watched as my meager savings was decimated after every down cycle on the stock market.
    After 40 years I am no where near that millionaire number after years dedicated savings.
    Paint any picture you want. If Wall Street is involved, you will lose a lot, maybe all at some point in your life.
    Not sure what your saying.
    Could you live on $1400 a month ?
    I couldn't. Taxes alone in my state would eat 25% of that. Food, medical, heat, electric, etc., and what is left ?
    Don't B/S people ... you could live on that if your in the woods doing the survivalist thing.
    Ask your wife how she would like that ?
    You are wrong on the taxation of S.S. benefits.
    That all started with Reagan in 1983.

    http://www.ssa.gov/history/taxationofbenefits.html
    Sounds like you listen to some very interesting propaganda.
    Without taxes this country would have nothing.
    No body likes to pay taxes, but you enjoy the benefits from them everyday.
    Sorry your unhappy paying your share of Social Security taxes.
    I'll bet your parents are happy they had that benefit.
     
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  13. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, let's be clear.
    I believe in this country and have for my 60 plus years.
    It will be here long after I am gone, and so will Social Security.
    I believe. Imagine standing up during WW2 and telling people not to buy war bonds because it was a ponzi scheme ?
    This country has used securities to fund war efforts and sustain the country during all times.
    Again, another member that is in the minority in regards to Social Security and it's sustainability.

    http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/fundFAQ.html#a0=6
     
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  14. Concrete Cowboy

    Concrete Cowboy Active Member

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    The national debt is over 18 trillion dollars, the whole government is a pyrimid scheme not just social security. Wake up America.
     
  15. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    This country and the rest of the world will be here after you and I have departed from mother earth.
    Propaganda and fear are playing well in certain circles.
     
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  16. Concrete Cowboy

    Concrete Cowboy Active Member

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    No doubt the world will be here long after we're gone but to act as if debt never caused problems for a country is just dumb.
     
  17. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    Debt is a large problem.
    Maybe we should stop all those wars that cost us trillions ...
    http://costsofwar.org/sites/default...s/Costs of War Summary Crawford June 2014.pdf
     
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  18. jimmy g

    jimmy g Kook

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    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvering_v._Davis

    Since Day One in 1935, all money went into the General Fund and as paid out that day. None was held in reserve, per the Supreme Court in 1937- Helvering vs Davis. Its an income tax with a fancy name.
     
  19. a9faninnc

    a9faninnc Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Government,lawyers,and money...Yea,im sure that works out good.Throw in fraudulent payouts and I know my "investment" is safe....If I were a few years from retirement,maybe I would have a brighter outlook on receiving my return.
     
  20. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    What Helvering V Davis decided was that it is constitutionally permissible for the Federal government to spend money for the general welfare of the people.
    Maybe you should have read this part:
    The program helped, but did not fully eliminate this problem.
    Finally this sums up why this program is needed, and more so today.
    You may be young now and can thump your chest about how great your doing, but your just one step away from what we all can become.
    Old, in need of assistance and asking why people like yourself feel no compassion or understanding.
    Good luck in your later years ... you will need it.
     
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