Social Security...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by a9faninnc, Nov 14, 2014.

  1. Northern Flash

    Northern Flash Piss on our Flag, get a boycott against you.

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    Stop with that audio proof b.s. Bubba. Fox News, Hannity and Limbaugh must have done some fancy "editing" to put that audio together.lol
     
  2. jimmy g

    jimmy g Kook

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    Most corruptness would be eliminated if we took three steps.

    1: repeal the 17th amendment. States would appoint Senators to answer to the individual State Legislatures. If a Senator drifted away from the view of his home lawmakers, he could be recalled by that state.

    2: term limits for representatives and senators. There wouldn't be the incentive to go-along to get-along. Get in, accomplish what you promised to do, and be replaced by fresher ideas.

    3: end income tax. Go Fair Tax. Ends most lobbying, which appears to be for tax breaks.

    Then, following those steps, the logical next step would be Congress would retake power from the Exec Branch, end most bueaucracy, return us to balanced budgets with payments toward the principle on debt owed....

    After that, I'd work on term limits for Supreme Court members, and Mark Levin's proposal to have all massive spending ( the entitlements and OCare )sunset every three years and have to be voted on again. Also, that a 3/4ths vote of the States could override a Supreme Court ruling.. (3/4ths is almost impossible to obtain).

    Those steps fix most things- especially the financial and corruptness problems...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
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  3. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    Your faith is still with Politicians.... even if your fanciful dream of "most Government shut down" came true....It will still be run by the Politicians that you place your hopes in to solve the problems...... Your faith in Politicians is not limited just because perhaps the numbers of Politicians are limited..

    No I don't trust them.... Do you? ...... I call for "expanded Government"?.... I don't think so.....The Government....any Government... must be able to meet the needs of it's citizens....as the Country grows that responsibility will also logically grow to meet the needs...as best it can....The Government does not exist to make a "profit"..it is not a Corporation.... Is there "overspending" in the Government? absolutely...The Military industrial complex is way over bloated and is always looking for a way to further fatten itself with our money....such as unnecessary Wars..... and many of the current Politicians are always there at hand to make sure we have all the money they need....at the expense of, and at the expense to, the taxpayers of this Nation...

    Perhaps where you may be confused is with my support for strengthening Social security....or other very useful and proven to be beneficial programs that help our Society....... I know your against that....However, Part of the preamble says "insure domestic tranquility"....In areas of economic decay there is little Tranquility and those are areas of greater Violence in our Society.... We should be rectifying those issues ahead of more Wars that only further weaken the economy of this Nation......And who is charge of these things?...Yes..Politicians..How have they preformed in this responsibility?... very poorly, in the past few decades most especially... See why I don't trust or have faith in any of them?....They have not even, despite all the trillions spent in the last 15 years or so, even made our Country "safer".......See why I don't trust or have faith in any of them?......

    Yes that is what they say...They "speak" to you.....they tell you want you want to hear....your their base...No different than the Democrats "speaking to their base.....they are all trying to get "elected"....and once in the seat of power... they will, by and large, succumb to the pressures and temptations of corruption.....just as those before them have....

    A small "limited" Government that is corrupt is just as bad for a Nation as a large Corrupted Government...Something that I still wouldn't embrace....

    "Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely" still applies....[/QUOTE]
     
  4. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    What I find equally comical is that those same people who mock those that admit that Washington sucks and can't be trusted...are also the same ones that are doing the same exact thing...."defending their party until the death as though they are Saints"...." while admitting that Washington sucks and can't be trusted.......
    Glad I don't have to defend any of them....that would be a pretty hard job.......

    That's partly true...I have read posts with statements that are not flattering to some Republicans....However you never say anything bad about your "real" Party....those "Tea Party" Politicians that you seem to adore.... And there are plenty of people on the "left" that "slap" Democrats around.....mostly for being complicit with the Republicans... but since you ONLY listen to Fox opinion programs....you probably wouldn't notice...

    It could be cut in size....but not in half...that is a statement made without giving much thought to it before posting....but I'm sure you figured everyone here would agree without question or deeper thought....


    Sure...start with cutting out all the unnecessary War spending.....that would be huge start...... Am I to understand that you are FOR Social Security?...isn't that just an unconstitutional socialistic ponzi-scheme anyway..... I don't see why you would care about Social Security......
     
  5. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    It's not the Institution of Government per-say, that is necessarily corrupt..it's those that comprise the Government that are corrupt....So why would anyone be stupid enough to support Politicians.....? Give these thieves more money to waste and line their pockets with it....

    Did you mean to say "Rife"? If not, it would have been a more accurate term.....
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  6. jimmy g

    jimmy g Kook

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    There are only a few different kinds of government. A dictatorship, or a kind of socialist democracy, or (ours was the only one at the time of our founding- now Ukraine and a very few others) are Representative Republics.

    We are supposed to be a group of tiny, almost non-existant Federal Governing while the States and the Individuals provide their needs and desires. The job of the Feds is to provide for common defense and ensure the states play fair. Madison wrote in the Federalist Papers that he was worried the states would be so strong, the Feds so weak, that he feared the national government might collapse.

    P, you're a question inside an enigma. I cannot understand how one can say to 'protect' social programs', but don't trust those you put in to run those. My view of you then becomes, since you want those programs (I want them phased out before they collapse of their own weight) but you distrust politicians, then the only way of governing left is dictatorship. My view of you has become that you want to decide for all what you or your handpicked dictator deems good for the rest of us. Its only logical, since you can't trust anyone to not be corrupted.. . it seems to be a common theme of the Left- 'Shut up stupid, while we tell you what's good for you!'. I have a lot of left-leanimg good hearted friends. They all seem to be the same....


    My view is the Constitution. Counties have the most responsibilities to ourselves for what we cant do for ourselves as individuals. Then states. The Feds have to protect us. Without the sense that we are safe to wake up in our own beds without being shot at, we have nothing.

    Is it 'every man for himself', as ive been branded before? Not really. But we can't go Marxist Utopia without going broke. That 18 trillion dollar debt you blame on 'unnessecary wars' is about 3 trillion on wars (some necessary, some not so much, but related- soon to be ALL necessary)- 15 trillion on unfunded social programs. With at least 125 trillion more promised in social programs coming- while the entire net worth of the world's valuables is approx 60 trillion. I'm glad you aren't MY dictator- we'd go broke this afternoon....

    Read my suggestions in the previous posts. It is necessary to elect representatives, and yes- there is a possibility of some being corrupt. They must answer to the people. I'd put them in NASCAR type suits showing who 'owns them/ their sponsors. Then we elect them knowing, and we can vote them out next time. The Apostle Paul wrote that we must elect good moral leaders. Gotta trust someone. We can't all run off to our own enclave in Mexico like it seems you have...
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
  7. jimmy g

    jimmy g Kook

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    P, a small limited government LIMITS the chance that corrupt people affect how we are forced to obey. Divergence gives more freedom, Central Control means one bureau can make all the rules and effect every facet of our lives. The epa and HHS both rule this way... One dept in DC shouldn't decide what's good for a small county in far away rural counties.... I don't believe your Chicago home and your Mexican home have the sane needs. They should have the same rules. Neither should Los Angeles and Wyoming....
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
  8. Bubba74

    Bubba74 Well-Known Member

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    a govt that is closest to the people can govern those people the best.
    My local city govt has a much better grasp on the needs of this community than the Feds 700 miles away.
    Maybe our school board is more in tune with the needs of our students here, rather than the Dept of Ed, 700 miles away.
    Maybe our police force has a better grasp on the crime in this area rather than the Feds, 700 miles away.

    Case in point, look a how the Feds botched Ferguson with their meddling.
     
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  9. Northern Flash

    Northern Flash Piss on our Flag, get a boycott against you.

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    Wrong. The Fed. Govt. knows best. Everything needs to be painted with a broad brush. Just ask any Libtard, they'll tell you that everything should be equal and exactly the same for everyone.......even income.
    lol
     
  10. jimmy g

    jimmy g Kook

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    What I see is the Left's main harping point, defense of SSI is ' unnecessary wars'. Or 'unfunded wars'. What wars were necessary, what ones weren't? The American Revolution had the support of less than 20%. What about WWII? What about Panama or Spanish-/American that added to the USA? What about going after bin Laden who attacked us? What about after ISIS or Iranattack us?

    Give me the lotto numbers if you. Know which war is necessary in advance....

    I was laid off after 9/11. The economy stalled. What would have been the cost of Not going to war?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
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  11. Northern Flash

    Northern Flash Piss on our Flag, get a boycott against you.

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    The "unnecessary war" comments are just talking points for the anti-war crowd. They like the give them a hug strategy instead, and we're currently finding out how the radical Muslims are responding to our hugs.
     
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  12. Bubba74

    Bubba74 Well-Known Member

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    want to talk "unnecessary wars"

    Why did we have to get involved in WWI?
    it was way over there.
    Germany did not attack us
    How about Korea
    N. Korea did not attack us
    Vietnam
    N. Vietnam did not attack us

    what do all the above have in common
    Wilson
    Truman
    JFK?

    9-11, oops wrong we were attacked
     
  13. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    That is true....and throughout history all types of Government have succumbed to corruption at some point...Our Government is no different in that regard.....

    Providing for the common defense alone requires more than a "tiny, almost non-existent" Federal Government...and ensuring that the "States play fair" requires regulating...on a Central or Federal level.....and as I mentioned before, as the population of the Sates and Nation grow...so do the problems and so does the need for more regulatory oversight.... When you think about it, The States do have the power to "rule" themselves....they all have their own laws regarding just about everything you can think of.... ..Even most of the Social safety programs....Each State has it's own laws and rule governing such programs....So the Federal Government is not as all encompassing and controlling as you seem to think.... Your statement of what Madison wrote in the Federalist papers actually supports the need of a stronger Federal Government for the very reason that if the States have to much control it would be detrimental to remaining the "United" States..... In my opinion a "tiny, almost non-existent" Federal Government would be counter to what Madison was concerned about in the example that you provided.....

    J, I am not being enigmatical ....However, I certainly see how you may see it that way.... You have your views....and when another point of view is presented and it doesn't "fit" with your way of seeing things....yes you may not be able to understand how it can be logical to say we should protect Social Programs, that have been unarguably beneficial to this Nation, while not trusting those that are responsible for safeguarding them... Let me try and explain... First off...those that are actually "running" them are not the Politicians themselves....they are usually Government workers....By and large, those employees are only following guidelines set forth in Law...mostly State laws.... .... When I say that I don't trust the Politicians, who make the laws..that is not saying that I don't see the need, or value, of the Programs....it only means that I don't trust those who make the laws..and have the authority to dissolve or at least, limit such programs, to the detriment of Society overall.... those are two different issues..and thus opinions...

    Your entitled to your view of me J, but I would certainly disagree with that view....Yes...true I want such programs...because I see them as a value to the people of this Nation....rather than just a drain on society.... If we did not have them...The cost would be greater to society than without them...You said that you want them "phased out before they collapse of their own weight"... I agree that if this Nation continues along it's current path of being the "Worlds Policeman" and trying to dictate to the World, our infrastructure of beneficial programs for our own citizens will collapse....that point I don't argue...
    I guess what we need to do as a Nation is decide what is more important.... Trying to "Police" the rest of the world, or concentrate on making the Nation better for the people that live here..... We have the Wealth to keep and strengthen our Social programs for the benefit and best interests of this Nation if we would not feel the need to try and be the Worlds "leader"...

    If I distrust Politicians to do the right things,"Left or Right", why would I trust a Dictatorship?.....That is not logical to assume....

    As I said before...your entitled to your view of me...even though it's erroneous..... I don't think you can find any posts or statements that I have made saying that I want to decide for all....or what my " handpicked dictator deems good for the rest of us" ...and NO that is not a "logical" statement at all...let me restate again, "Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely"... I am an imperfect human being.... If given absolute power to "decide for all" there is no guarantee that I would not become corrupted....same applies to any of us imperfect humans..including your brand of Politicians..... Jeremiah 10:23 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps" ... That, along with the results of Human Governments, is one reason why I don't have faith or trust in Politicians.... you should understand that J.....

    It seems to be a common theme of the "Right".. Shut up stupid, while we tell you what's good for you"..... There is rhetoric on both sides...and the same point can be said for either of them...It just depends on what "flavor" you prefer.... but both make the same "argument"..... Yes..they all seem to be the same...... I also have "right" leaning friends that are good heartfelt people....

    There are many many places like that in this Country.....for those people that live there...yes they probably feel as if they really have nothing...
     
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  14. SuperCourse

    SuperCourse WHO IS JOHN GALT?

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    One thing I like about our government is that it sucks less than most of the others.
     
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  15. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    Glad you can see that...at least to a certain level......


    No we can't...however we can provide better for the people of this Nation by using the resources we have more wisely....Nothing "Marxist" about that...
    I never once blamed the entire national debt on "unnecessary wars".... I have said that speeding on unnecessary wars has proved to be a detriment to the betterment of this Country....Afghanistan and Iraq, and the ongoing costs that are a direct cause of those wars, were and have been, proved to be unnecessary... 3 trillion would go a long way towards bettering this Country.....


    I'm glad I'm not your Dictator either....and I'm even more glad that your not MY Dictator either......We would be back in third world status by this afternoon...... You say that "we'd go broke this afternoon"..... I thought you have said that we are already broke...... ..

    Yes...it is necessary to elect Representatives....but we are really not electing them per-say.... We get a choice between two, usually, and they both get to that level because of Money....LARGE sums of Money...and the promises made to keep that money flowing in....That is where the corruption comes into play in a very large way in the "process"......You say they must answer to the people.....The only "people" they answer to are the ones that give them the most money....the ones they actually represent....as far as the "people" go....people like you and I.... have any of them ever "answered" to "we the people"?.... That is also part of the corruption issues..they really don't have to answer to any of us....

    That would be great... but could you trust them to be honest about it....?... Good idea though......

    The Apostle Paul was writing to the Thessalonians... He had left men in charge who held to sound doctrine and these men were presumably opposing the false teachers. As a result, the Thessalonians were receiving mixed messages from its true leaders on the one hand and from their usurpers on the other. Paul made it clear that the teaching of the leadership that he established was to be followed, and the teaching of the false prophets rejected....So Paul was not writing about electing moral Political leaders....He was instructing the Christians of Thessalonia to watch for false profits within the Church..

    And yes... you have to trust someone.....but trusting Human Governments with eradicating the World of strife and suffering....The scriptures are clear about that... Jeremiah 10:23.... "the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps"....

    Well yes...anyone can come to Mexico to live...full-time or part-time.....Yes I have homes here ...yes I have homes in the States....Yes I'm fortunate to have what I do....but I have not "run off to my own enclave in Mexico..."... The Place that I live here is not an enclosed territory that is culturally distinct or different from the areas that my home is located......so it is not an "enclave"..... It is simply my home that I reside in for several months each year...When I'm here I live within the local community as does everyone else...I speak their language....... So I guess if you want to view it from that perspective....I guess not everyone can do that.. or wants to, for that matter....... But think of the Experience of it....the education of living in a culture other than your own. ...to see the world from a new perspective... It's eye opening...
     
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  16. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    Can't argue that....
     
  17. jimmy g

    jimmy g Kook

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    Here is a post I never would see me saying: I give up! Where I WON't debate the guy who wants me burned alive- I CANT debate constant posts that take what I say, then are portrayed (warning- generalization coming) as ' that's what you post but Here's what you mean.....

    Ive laid out my views of freedom in governance and taken.What Politic are you tests that all show I'm Live and Let Live unless it affects me libertarian. But I'm call ultra extremist forcing my way on others. I post links to the Constitution and its called UnAmerican and extreme. I post links to the tenets of central governance Marxism and those are denied but then called for as the best way. I post that you have a world view not a USA view and you deny that then tell me I need to see the USA as the world sees us. . I post that I distrust politicians and am told I trust them. I post that we need to elect leaders with a record of trustworthiness and putting them in a system of accountability and am told they will be corrupt too (in spite of no proof). Then you go on pushing an ultra extremist Leftist Central Power agenda (straight from Marx) while denying it and of course- adding the obligatory 'both sides do it and you guys in here only like Republucabs'...

    I give up. I surrender. You win. Das Ende. Whatever.... your posts are the flowery version of You still beat your wife. there is no logic that can compete in that world...
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
  18. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    All the wars you mentioned were to support governments ( or anti-communist ) that the US wanted to help defend,
    As for WW-1, we supported our allies, as we would do now.
    Korea had US troops as early as 1945 to remove Japanese soldiers.
    The war was started by the north and we helped the south, our allies and non-communist government, fight back the advances of the Chinese and DPRK.

    You failed to mention that as early as 1950, the United States was funding the French for the Vietnam war. That funding continued well into 1954 with arms and money ( 1 billion US dollars ) sent to support the French military.
    The first American casualties were in 1957. We had military forced there at that time.

    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-forces-suffer-first-casualties-in-vietnam

    As for the associated costs, there are many different estimates of what the US taxpayer will contribute for the latest wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    All the costs cannot be tabulated immediately, as even today, we continue to pay for veterans cost associated with the Vietnam war.
    It could reach 6 trillion without the long term costs to our vets.
    Yet this country continues to operate each and every day as it has over the last century, and it will continue. Costs of defending freedom, the costs to defeat communism, the costs to our veterans that defended all our rights, those costs will continue until there are no more wars and none of the soldiers are left alive that need the support they gave us.
     
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  19. fxstc07

    fxstc07 Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying you don't want to change it ?
     
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  20. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    No one on here has ever made such statements...Show me the posts of anyone who said that everything should be equal and exactly the same..including income........ NO one has said that.....You got that bit of stupidity from listening to Fox opinion programs...or far right-wing Radio programs.....that's the only places I've heard such nonsense...besides reading your posts....
     

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