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FedEx Freight | The pension problem

Crystal said:
No I didn't ignore it actually I've seen it posted a few times .But how is it relevant to those funds being insolvent? I never once said that the pension funds aren't in trouble. Hell even NASA's retirement fund is underfunded by the Federal Government. My only claim was and still is that the Teamster's MEPFs are not insolvent as was stated as being a fact by this threads starter.
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Yes in the pure sense you are absolutely right and I am absolutely wrong and I acknowledge that fully. But in the spirit of what we are debating you are splitting hairs, its a difference without distinction. Yes at this moment the funds are not insolvent but they are headed straight into insolvency I don't see how you can claim otherwise.
 
johndeere4020 said:
Yes in the pure sense you are absolutely right and I am absolutely wrong and I acknowledge that fully. But in the spirit of what we are debating you are splitting hairs, its a difference without distinction. Yes at this moment the funds are not insolvent but they are headed straight into insolvency I don't see how you can claim otherwise.
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I don't see it as splitting hairs. It's true that some funds are under PPA mandated rehabilitation plans and could conceivably end up in future years becoming insolvent. But that possibility is far different than the author of this thread claiming as a fact that all union pension funds are right at this time insolvent. To my knowledge no Teamster MEPF has ever defaulted or missed issuing a retiree's pay check.
 
Crystal said:
I don't see it as splitting hairs. It's true that some funds are under PPA mandated rehabilitation plans and could conceivably end up in future years becoming insolvent. But that possibility is far different than the author of this thread claiming as a fact that all union pension funds are right at this time insolvent. To my knowledge no Teamster MEPF has ever defaulted or missed issuing a retiree's pay check.
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Crystal, why don't you back off just a little.? . Some of us are interested in the substance of the conversation.
 
frtshaker said:
Two problems with your math. One, you cannot assume 6% market gains on a consistent basis. Two, suppose the FXF driver outlives his savings, whereas the UPSF driver is guaranteed a lifetime pension? I knew someone that was UAW retired and collected his pension longer than he worked there. The way you have it figured the using 3150 a month you are assuming the UPSF driver dies shortly after retiring which is not always the case. Furthermore, the figure of 3150 a month is the rate now, why do you assume that will not be negotiated higher in the future?
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In order to even do this math I had to make certain mathematical assumptions. Instead of using the historical market averages for the last 20 years of around 10%, or the 65 year historical average of 7%, I opted to low-ball to look at a less optimistic possibility. I used a constant average because that just makes it easier. I could have done a weekly topsy-turvy thing with recessions and bull markets and all of that but that sounds hard and takes a lot more creativity and time than I have. However, dollar-cost averaging and dividend reinvestments would realistically make the 6% number I used even less optimistic than what might actually happen under my proposed scenarios. Again, I had to assume something.

As far as when I die, that's another issue. The average American male lives to be 76 years old. A study you can look up is that the average life expectancy of a truck driver is much less than that. I don't need to tell you about the dangers of our jobs and the substances with which we interact and the toll of sitting and pulling and pushing and long hours and stress etc. My stepdad collects a pension and he turned 90 this year. He was a cop who smoked for 55 years and developed neither cancer nor COPD. We had a 47 year old driver who seemed to be rather healthy and he died of a massive heart attack this year. You just never know when it's your time.

As far as which type of retirement that you think might be better for you, I think you can make that decision yourself. You can take the money collected from your accumulated FedEx retirement plan and invest it into an annuity that could presumably pay more or less. My preference is to take the money myself and manage my own retirement. If it's my money I can make that choice and if it's the union money I can't.

I have to assume that the company is not going to come back and retroactively offer a more generous defined-benefit retirement package. Companies do budget for that and UPSF drivers already have higher wages but, again, I had to make certain assumptions. What I didn't do in the most recent scenario is account for inflation. I did that in my initial post so you could see what inflation might do to the value of your pension if you accepted a defined-benefit pension. By the way, government unions don't accept defined benefit pensions without cost-of-living adjustments. It is understood that there has to be a way to account for inflation when you're living on a fixed income in retirement. In the case of the Central States Pension, they have proposed reducing the pensions to current and future retirees. I do not think that would happen with FedEx but I would like it to be my money so a situation like that wouldn't happen. I'm just offering my perspective. If we do go union, I personally will be very disappointed in giving up control of my retirement.
 
Moninja said:
In order to even do this math I had to make certain mathematical assumptions. Instead of using the historical market averages for the last 20 years of around 10%, or the 65 year historical average of 7%, I opted to low-ball to look at a less optimistic possibility. I used a constant average because that just makes it easier. I could have done a weekly topsy-turvy thing with recessions and bull markets and all of that but that sounds hard and takes a lot more creativity and time than I have. However, dollar-cost averaging and dividend reinvestments would realistically make the 6% number I used even less optimistic than what might actually happen under my proposed scenarios. Again, I had to assume something.

As far as when I die, that's another issue. The average American male lives to be 76 years old. A study you can look up is that the average life expectancy of a truck driver is much less than that. I don't need to tell you about the dangers of our jobs and the substances with which we interact and the toll of sitting and pulling and pushing and long hours and stress etc. My stepdad collects a pension and he turned 90 this year. He was a cop who smoked for 55 years and developed neither cancer nor COPD. We had a 47 year old driver who seemed to be rather healthy and he died of a massive heart attack this year. You just never know when it's your time.

As far as which type of retirement that you think might be better for you, I think you can make that decision yourself. You can take the money collected from your accumulated FedEx retirement plan and invest it into an annuity that could presumably pay more or less. My preference is to take the money myself and manage my own retirement. If it's my money I can make that choice and if it's the union money I can't.

I have to assume that the company is not going to come back and retroactively offer a more generous defined-benefit retirement package. Companies do budget for that and UPSF drivers already have higher wages but, again, I had to make certain assumptions. What I didn't do in the most recent scenario is account for inflation. I did that in my initial post so you could see what inflation might do to the value of your pension if you accepted a defined-benefit pension. By the way, government unions don't accept defined benefit pensions without cost-of-living adjustments. It is understood that there has to be a way to account for inflation when you're living on a fixed income in retirement. In the case of the Central States Pension, they have proposed reducing the pensions to current and future retirees. I do not think that would happen with FedEx but I would like it to be my money so a situation like that wouldn't happen. I'm just offering my perspective. If we do go union, I personally will be very disappointed in giving up control of my retirement.
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The only thing that may change with going union is the pension and 401k match that FXF currently provides. You still could have a 401k through the Teamsters https://www.retirement.prudential.com/cws/teamsters401kplan/. You would still be able to contribute to a Roth IRA. I would still fund both myself and have FXF put $320 a week or $16,640 annually towards my pension. Surely you can see that 16k a year is way more than FXF is putting into our pension or 401k match.
 
frtshaker said:
The only thing that may change with going union is the pension and 401k match that FXF currently provides. You still could have a 401k through the Teamsters https://www.retirement.prudential.com/cws/teamsters401kplan/. You would still be able to contribute to a Roth IRA. I would still fund both myself and have FXF put $320 a week or $16,640 annually towards my pension. Surely you can see that 16k a year is way more than FXF is putting into our pension or 401k match.
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Where are you coming up with $320 a week number? As far as the teamsters 401k the "company" has to agree to it.
 
johndeere4020 said:
Where are you coming up with $320 a week number? As far as the teamsters 401k the "company" has to agree to it.
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UPSF contact is 8 dollars per hour up to 40 contributed to the pension which is $320 a week. Why wouldn't they agree to it? How would it cost the company anything if they don't have to contribute?
 
Moninja said:
I just wish you didn't think I was trying to mislead anyone. I'm not and I'm just a stupid truck driver. I'm offering my perspective and opinions and supporting those opinions with facts. What you have done, sir, is contribute to the discussion by offering a valid counterpoint. I could take issue with some of the finer points of what you've said but that would miss the bigger point. Because I'm not trying to prove myself right, I'll say you're right on all of them. There are probably many more advantages to bringing in a union and having them negotiate a UPSF style contract for us than just the ones you mention. There are probably many things we would lose, that we have right now, if we unionize.

Obviously that still leaves the issue of the flexibility I have with my retirement account. Having life insurance is common sense and not something I would need if I didn't have control of my pension. I do understand your point, however, that you don't consider any unused pension as part of the legacy you will leave to your heirs. And even if you wanted to, it wouldn't weigh heavily against the fact that UPSF makes more money and doesn't have to contribute anything towards their retirement. It's not my thread. It's our thread driver. You seem to have made up your mind about the union.
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Back on to the (presumed) original intent of this discussion. Hopefully...

I did not involve myself in this discussion for several days because, for one, I didn't have the time to read, let alone digest, the totality of your research and conclusions. Also, not by any stretch, my area of expertise.

1st off I don't think you intended to mislead. I just wanted to bring the "total package" into the discussion. Obviously you're a smart guy and I do, in fact, like your way of thinking, as well as your facts. Speaking only for myself here, I appreciate your effort to educate and inform. I also appreciate your updated post (107). I like facts. All the facts in this discussion, as well as all societal debates. Truly informed voters that base decisions on facts, can be respected. Causes and effects can be more thoroughly debated, and solid opinions formed with accurate information. Again, I thank you for your contribution.

I'll even take it a step further, and say when the time comes for negotiations, Your facts should be front and center, while deciding the specifics of the pension portion of a FXFE contract. Ours is expected to be "uniquely ours", and this input should guide the design. You, or someone very much like you, should be there on the committee, IMHO.

As for the need for union representation. Yes I have made up my mind and the pension has only a little to do with it, for me. While I've never had any union "fetish" (quite the opposite, in fact), I've seen our workplace decline, both in terms of compensation,as well as the entire relationship. Almost from the beginning of FedEx control, wages failed to keep up (inflation/competition). Good times and bad, decisions have been made to limit compensation based, not on what we've earned, but the minimum the market will bear. That market has changed, and our "terms" should as well. Compensation could have been overlooked (somewhat), were it not for the "force feeding" of every new rule, goal, or flavor of the day, as well as practices (purchase transportation), and many blatant inconsistencies throughout. Without organized representation, our voice won't be heard, or listened to.

Again, thanks for your time, research, and contribution. Good stuff.
 
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johndeere4020 said:
Who do you think pays the 8 dollars an hour?
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You asked about the pension I responded with 8 dollar an hour that the company would have to pay for. I also mentioned the Teamster 401k. That is something the company would not have to contribute to. There is a reason why used punctuation to separate my comments sir. They are two separate things.
 
frtshaker said:
You asked about the pension I responded with 8 dollar an hour that the company would have to pay for. I also mentioned the Teamster 401k. That is something the company would not have to contribute to. There is a reason why used punctuation to separate my comments sir. They are two separate things.
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I understand proper structuring of a sentence. My point was and has been you may not get what UPSF gets, this is what started me posting on here in the first place, guys like you posting what you will get if you vote the Teamsters in. Like it or not Fedex will have say in what kind of pension you will get as well as how much goes in it. Stop telling everyone what you will get, because you have no idea. As far as the Teamsters 401k I don't think that is available to everybody, it wasn't when I was a Teamster.
 
johndeere4020 said:
I understand proper structuring of a sentence. My point was and has been you may not get what UPSF gets, this is what started me posting on here in the first place, guys like you posting what you will get if you vote the Teamsters in. Like it or not Fedex will have say in what kind of pension you will get as well as how much goes in it. Stop telling everyone what you will get, because you have no idea. As far as the Teamsters 401k I don't think that is available to everybody, it wasn't when I was a Teamster.
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Please show me where I have ever said that is was written in stone that anything is guaranteed. I have stated that I would LIKE a UPSF style contract. If the Teamsters were able to negotiate that for UPSF there isn't any reason why we couldn't have something similar. It's not like FXF is in any financial distress. If they were, that would be a different story all together.
 
frtshaker said:
Please show me where I have ever said that is was written in stone that anything is guaranteed. I have stated that I would LIKE a UPSF style contract. If the Teamsters were able to negotiate that for UPSF there isn't any reason why we couldn't have something similar. It's not like FXF is in any financial distress. If they were, that would be a different story all together.
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This^^^ UPSF 4th largest ltl Fed ex Frt is 1 ltl we should be able to get a better benefits package all together,
 
We won't get anything close to UPSF contract. The company has to negotiate with union in good faith, that is all, they do not have to agree to anything period. Ask your union rep or better yet look it up yourself and stop listening to people who promise you the world but can't deliver. Ask them to put it in writing that we will get a contract as good as UPSF contract and see what he says.
 
snoopy1 said:
We won't get anything close to UPSF contract. The company has to negotiate with union in good faith, that is all, they do not have to agree to anything period. Ask your union rep or better yet look it up yourself and stop listening to people who promise you the world but can't deliver. Ask them to put it in writing that we will get a contract as good as UPSF contract and see what he says.
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Won't get anything close? Not with that kind of thinking... Are you not worth the same? Are they a better company? Are their workers better? The current market shows we are worth more. Do you expect anything to improve without organized reresentation? Your honest answer to that provides your only guarantee in this, IMHO
 
frtshaker said:
Please show me where I have ever said that is was written in stone that anything is guaranteed. I have stated that I would LIKE a UPSF style contract. If the Teamsters were able to negotiate that for UPSF there isn't any reason why we couldn't have something similar. It's not like FXF is in any financial distress. If they were, that would be a different story all together.
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No you never said it is written in stone, you guys never do then that's always your fall back position "I never said that". Yet you never preface it with anything staring its your opinion. Here's the deal in my opinion, if we are having a discussion about say for example pension, and you throw out a statement like"I would still fund both myself and have FXF put $320 a week or $16,640 annually towards my pension" you are letting people that aren't sure whats going on think that is what FedEx will do. Here's the fact you have no idea what is going to happen so stop speculating on something you can't control to make it sound better than it is.
 
johndeere4020 said:
No you never said it is written in stone, you guys never do then that's always your fall back position "I never said that". Yet you never preface it with anything staring its your opinion. Here's the deal in my opinion, if we are having a discussion about say for example pension, and you throw out a statement like"I would still fund both myself and have FXF put $320 a week or $16,640 annually towards my pension" you are letting people that aren't sure whats going on think that is what FedEx will do. Here's the fact you have no idea what is going to happen so stop speculating on something you can't control to make it sound better than it is.
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Ok.... its a message board for crying out loud. I think its obvious to everyone but you, that people here post their opinions. You seem to be the only one confused with that. Im sure that this and other websites would have be shut down for libel a long time ago if it wasn't obvious that these posts are opinions. Get off your high horse.
 
SwampRatt said:
Back on to the (presumed) original intent of this discussion. Hopefully...

I did not involve myself in this discussion for several days because, for one, I didn't have the time to read, let alone digest, the totality of your research and conclusions. Also, not by any stretch, my area of expertise.

1st off I don't think you intended to mislead. I just wanted to bring the "total package" into the discussion. Obviously you're a smart guy and I do, in fact, like your way of thinking, as well as your facts. Speaking only for myself here, I appreciate your effort to educate and inform. I also appreciate your updated post (107). I like facts. All the facts in this discussion, as well as all societal debates. Truly informed voters that base decisions on facts, can be respected. Causes and effects can be more thoroughly debated, and solid opinions formed with accurate information. Again, I thank you for your contribution.

I'll even take it a step further, and say when the time comes for negotiations, Your facts should be front and center, while deciding the specifics of the pension portion of a FXFE contract. Ours is expected to be "uniquely ours", and this input should guide the design. You, or someone very much like you, should be there on the committee, IMHO.

As for the need for union representation. Yes I have made up my mind and the pension has only a little to do with it, for me. While I've never had any union "fetish" (quite the opposite, in fact), I've seen our workplace decline, both in terms of compensation,as well as the entire relationship. Almost from the beginning of FedEx control, wages failed to keep up (inflation/competition). Good times and bad, decisions have been made to limit compensation based, not on what we've earned, but the minimum the market will bear. That market has changed, and our "terms" should as well. Compensation could have been overlooked (somewhat), were it not for the "force feeding" of every new rule, goal, or flavor of the day, as well as practices (purchase transportation), and many blatant inconsistencies throughout. Without organized representation, our voice won't be heard, or listened to.

Again, thanks for your time, research, and contribution. Good stuff.
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This is what I'm getting at. I think we need to consider what we're getting into. As far as the company is concerned, the first responsibility of a company is to make a profit. Therefore, an effectively run company will be forward-looking and able to adjust to the marketplace to more effectively serve not just today's customer, but also tomorrow's. When they built the Golden Gate Bridge, hundreds of ferries were operating in that area and a lot of people lost their jobs because of the bridge. Should they have stopped the bridge being built so the ferry workers could keep their jobs? If the bridge had not been built, and ferry operators allowed to continue to control the marketplace, what would that area look like today? I guess my point is that I do try to be sympathetic to the needs of progress. Our company has a niche in the market where if someone wants reliable, and if necessary, expedited service, we provide that better than anyone else. And maintain profitability

However, there is also that push back because the two greatest costs at FedEx are fuel and labor. Labor is a variable cost that must be controlled. Being labor, I don't like my costs to be controlled. I would like to see more of a profit and I don't like management telling me that I can't make as much as the next guy when the market says I should. However, like you said, it's not just about the money. Management often seems indifferent and isolated from what's going on with the drivers. I remember asking a manager why he had released some of our very best part-time dock workers because their schedules made them miss 1 or 2 days a week. His answer was "no exceptions." That pissed me off. Last winter we were on 12 hour days, with mandatory dock work for all drivers, because this manager was indifferent to what the hourly workers were dealing with.

I guess I'm just saying I'm with you on that as well. We're not going to be heard if management doesn't want to hear us. If organizing in to a union means we will be heard and then the next indifferent manager to come along can't fire anyone who questions him, or anyone else, for any random reason and even if he doesn't fire us, he can make a bunch of stupid rules that just make our lives hell. The other side of that is that we're going to be following someone else's rules, submitting to their representation, trusting them to put us in a better situation than we are right now. Again, I'm not sure if that's the answer either. I'm weighing all of the information. I think there has to be a better way than business as usual or union business as usual. The union is going to try to get us what the union guys got. I'm just not sure if that's going to improve upon what we have now and what we're going to have to give up to get it.
 
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