When I hear people blame Obama, say we're in bad shape I don't get it

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Magoo, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    If you work for the Government.....and they no longer need your "service" you will be terminated.......They don't just "ignore you" and hope you disappear on your own.......



    I agree that term limits could be helpful.....

    .. [​IMG]


    This handy little chart visualizes what the 10th amendment is.....Notice some of the overlapping powers...

    How is the 10th amendment not being enforced today...?
     
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  2. aflifer

    aflifer Well-Known Member

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    I am not talking about government employees.....they will be the cottage industry of that type of government.....

    Whoever made up your handy little chart must have never read article 1, section 8 of the Constitution.......it does not mention anything about public welfare or many of the other "overlapping" powers listed on your chart...

    Many federal agencies are sticking their nose in the stuff on the right of your chart as well....department of education maybe?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
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  3. SuperCourse

    SuperCourse Well-Known Member

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  4. EX396

    EX396 Well-Known Member

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    Ah...but the key difference seems to be that I can justify my choice AND be proud of the reasons.


    Simple. I believe in giving a hand up, not a hand out. I believe we should have the opportunities that many of our ancestors immigrated to this country in seek of. Not making sure the lazy are supported and the evil corporations are reigned in. I believe in bringing jobs back to this Country. You are not going to do that when you make it too expensive for companies to operate here vs there. I don't believe in any such thing as a free lunch. I don't feel entitled to things I didn't earn. I don't believe that we should support candidates who should be hung for Treason. Clear enough why I support my side?

    Now, tell me with a straight face why you feel we should support a candidate who has blood on her hands or another who feels entitled to other peoples' stuff (also known as a thief)?
     
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  5. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    The Corporation can do whatever the Government can do to whomever it is you're talking about...... If you think that only the Government can do "bad" things to people...that's simply not true....Corporations can also do "Bad" things to people.... I don't understand why people think that Corporations can do no evil....

    I keep forgetting that the only people who know what the Constitution is about are just the "scholars" on here......

    Article 1 uses the phrase " and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States".... I guess the crux of the matter is how the term "General welfare" is applied......... Article I Section 8 gives Congress the power to levy and collect taxes. It also grants Congress the power to determine how federal funds collected from federal taxes can be spent....which could also include social programs.....
     
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  6. EX396

    EX396 Well-Known Member

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    They certainly can both do evil. Differences are evil people in Government can have a huge wide sweeping impact, without much recourse from the public. Evil corporations get handled a bit differently and citizens have the option to not do business with them. FREEDOM.

    Evil do-ers aside, the private sector is much more efficient than our Government at just about everything they do.

    Yes, they've been disagreeing about what "general Welfare" meant and how it was to be applied since day 1.

    If you give the meth addict, outside the 7-11, a $5 bill are you helping promote their welfare? I'm guessing they'd think so. I'd argue, certainly not. Enabling poor behaviors is not providing for ones' welfare. Providing a man a fish everyday, instead of teaching that man to fish is not doing them a favor.
     
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  7. aflifer

    aflifer Well-Known Member

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    You may need to brush up on history, Professor, if you are unaware of what some governments have been able to accomplish. Corporations cannot limit the free will of someone, governments can....I can leave the corporation tomorrow if I want, no recourse, if uncle Sam doesn't have a check by April 15, I could lose what few rights this government still provides.....

    "General welfare", when used in a sentence regarding the defence should not be applicable to the citizenry or populace of the nation, just the nation itself.

    The enumerated rights were specifically put in place to limit federal government......to the extent that many thought a bill of rights should not be necessary. Basically, if it isn't explicitly stated, the feds should not be involved. The tenth amendment only reinforces that premise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  8. SuperCourse

    SuperCourse Well-Known Member

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    Bingo
     
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  9. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    Ah.....but there is no "key difference"..... First off...no one is telling you that you have to justify your choice.... you can choose whomever for whatever reason you wish....Same as those that make a choice that is different than yours.....and I'm sure that those people are just as "proud" about their choice as you are about yours....... That's the point I'm making.... .. You don't think it's possible for others to support someone different than you and be just as "proud" and have the same convictions as you do about your choice?......... Support your "guy" and don't worry about why or who someone else is supporting....... They have their reasons as you have yours....

    I didn't ask why you supported "your side" doesn't really matter to me............ You stated that "neither side is trying to make it a better Country for us all......." The things you mentioned.....don't you believe those will make this a better Country for everyone?.......If not, why aren't you interested in making our Nation a better place for everyone? Or do you believe that it should only be better for you and let everyone else fend for themselves..?... A vibrant cohesive society can not be attained by an "everyone for themselves" free for all .....but if you think that...fine...it's your right to think and express your opinions and support those that you feel best represent your ideals....... Just the same as those that share opposing views.......

    First off.... I am NOT telling you who you should support NOR is anyone else telling you should support anyone.....you made your choice.....others have made their choice as well.......respect that.....

    If your asking about someones perspective on why they support Clinton or Sanders...you'll have to ask a Clinton or Sanders supporter...

    You are making far more of this than whats necessary..... You asked a simple question about how someone could support Sanders or Clinton....and those that support them do so because they share the same perspectives about their choice as you do about yours..... You think your choice is the best for you.....and they, I'm sure, feel the same with their choice.... I would bet they feel just as "right" and just as "proud" as you do with your reasons and choice... Not that hard to understand is it??.......
     
  10. Rastus

    Rastus ......Deplorable.....

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    [​IMG]

    There's still this little issue. $9 trillion of which is thanks to Obama. If you went to Trump
    University then you can do the math and figure out how much Barry added to your share. If you can't it's $28,000 per citizen or $76,000 per taxpayer now pay up. :27:
     
  11. Magoo

    Magoo You don't have to be Einstein to figure it out

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    It's not that's it's too expensive to open up manufacturing here.
    It's just that it's so cheap in other places
     
  12. Magoo

    Magoo You don't have to be Einstein to figure it out

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    If you watched the debate last night FOX showed Rumps can't count, did anyone notice that?
    Mr Rumps you say that you can save 300 billion closing the department of education, and 600 billion from prescription drug program.
    But the budget for those two programs only come to 80 billion total added together?:stupid:
     
  13. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    Just what "Some Governments" and "accomplishments" are you referring to?......


    Depends on how you define "free will"....One definition is "Doing of your own accord" another would be "The power of making free choices unconstrained by external sources"..... Either way....Corporations can, and do, limit a persons ability to do of their own accord....Corporations can also limit your power of making free unconstrained choices.......just like the Government can..... Yes you leave the Corporation......but you will still be constrained by the next Corporation ...Yes you can leave the Country.....but you will still be constrained by the next Government...... No one has complete unconstrained "free will"........

    .

    Why are you bringing this up?..... Article 1 section 8 gives the Government to ability to levy taxes.....It's the law that you pay them.....There are penalties for breaking the law....... Just to be fair.....if you don't pay your taxes directly by the 15th of April.... you won't lose any of our rights....IF you refuse to pay them period....well there are penalties for breaking the law...as I've already mentioned......
    The Constitution that you say must be adhered to by the letter says you must pay your taxes as they are levied......So you shouldn't have an issue with that......

    Just exactly what is the "Nation itself"?..... Without the citizens or the populace that lives here.....there wouldn't be a "Nation".....there would be no one or nothing to "defend" or provide "General welfare" to..........

    Read closely the sentence...it says "common Defense and general Welfare....notice 'AND".... so yes...providing for the General welfare of the citizens is applicable....because as I said....without the people, there is no Nation......

    The Constitution gives the Government it's authority, so to speak,..... the 10th amendment provides constraints on the power of the federal Government as concerns the States....... To what degree is debatable....and it has been debated......over and over again.......There is plenty of room for interpretation.....that's is why we have a Supreme Court.....to make those determinations...... You or I may not always agree with them...or each other....but that is the way it is........
     
  14. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    That's really sad and pathetic if you think about.......When you have a Nation full of selfish people only interested in themselves and only whats "good for them" and wanting more for themselves...... Well, take a look around and see how that "philosophy" is working out....

    P.S.... Bubba74, I'm not calling you "sad and Pathetic" (Just in case you or anyone else took t that way).....just the fact that everyone is only concerned about what is best for them above all else...
     
  15. EX396

    EX396 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and my original comment was that I didn't see how somebody in their right mind could support Hillary or Bernie. All your arguments with regards to whether they need/should support their choice are irrelevant to disproving my original comment.

    Nope. Just gives everybody the freedom and opportunity, they'll have to make it better for themselves.
     
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  16. aflifer

    aflifer Well-Known Member

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    The list of oppressive governments that mistreat people in ways that a corporation wouldn't even dream of us too numerous to name.....

    Free will is just that......a corporation can only be a constraining external force if I allow them to.......governments (all, but especially BIG ones) do not have options that would allow you not to consider their constraints and abide by them.......hence my taxes example......which I must admit wasn't overly clear........no issues with federal ability to tax, which is clear.....

    Pretty sure "welfare" had a much different definition 250 years ago than most have today.....but I would interpet it to mean that the federal government is responsible for the well-being of the us, as it relates to the rest of the world, considering that that power includes in it the responsibility to pay debts and provide common defence. I wonder if SCOTUS would pay off my wife's credit cards and build a moat around my property if I challenged that they have to pay off my debt and provide me a common defence because this provision states they do?

    Never mind......the way they seem to be leaning of late, they probably would....
     
  17. Rastus

    Rastus ......Deplorable.....

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    :off topic: What about the $28,000 and $76,000 per each citizen and each taxpayer the Obama added to each u.s. citizen?
    Maybe Trump ment over 10 years.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  18. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    I get that...but we aren't talking about those Governments.....

    That is true, to a degree.... Most wage earners are tied to those Corporate jobs due to having health insurance...perhaps due to a health condition........the need to provide shelter and food for the Family.....there are many reasons why a person can't just "up and quit" because they are unhappy.....yes it's possible that you can....but in most cases it's not a real viable choice....and there is no guarantee the next job a person gets isn't going to be better....might actually prove worse..... I get what you are saying..and I don't totally disagree.... In today's World there are less and less "options" for the working class...... Simply allowing unfettered Corporate control isn't the complete answer....neither is total and complete Governmental control....It takes a balance....and sadly that balance is becoming less of a possibility......

    I'm pretty sure it does to....Definitions do change....another example is the word "Gay".....Lots of things are much different today than they were 250 years ago....Problems that the Founders could not have possibly been seen nor dreamed of.....Such as the formations of Worldwide Corporations as an example..... Like it not, the Federal Government and the Constitution have to account for these variances when considering matters.....

    You have your "version" of how it should be....and I respect that....... I would say that part of being responsible for the "well being of the United States, is ensuring the well being if its citizens.....without us...there isn't a U.S........ Look at Countries that do not care for the needs of their citizens.....Would you really prefer to live in one of those Countries?........

    You check into that and let me know how that works out for you............ I think it would be really cool if I could get a moat built around my property......IF of course, local ordinance would allow it...lol

    Nice chatting with you.... I am out of time today...but perhaps another day we can make another "go" of it again..... Have a good one!
     
  19. Magoo

    Magoo You don't have to be Einstein to figure it out

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    Thats OFF TOPIC as you suggest . we can't talk about it, all of this is on the record.
     
  20. pilot87

    pilot87 Well-Known Member

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    You didn't make a comment, you asked a question...this one: "how can anybody in their right mind think that Hillary or Sanders would be a better choice?"

    There is nothing to prove or disprove.....it's a question....I provided an answer...then you added other comments to which I responded to.... of which you can't seem to get a grasp on.....

    My answer to your original question is still the same one I gave when you asked... If you don't understand it..or disagree with it fine....doesn't change my life in any way........

    Nothing you mentioned gives anyone "Freedom" that we don't already have......The only thing you mentioned that could provide "opportunity" was bringing jobs back....and no one would disagree with that.......

    I get your points..... "Freedom and opportunity" for everyone....Sounds like you are for providing a better Nation for everyone after all..... .... .. So..... Glad we got that all out of the way...... Have a nice day.....and I'm sure we'll get a chance to disagree on other topics in the future.....

    Have a good one EX396....
     

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