From the President's speech on 9/7/09

[222lifer]

I've switched positions on Cap and Trade. I'm for it now. Because as we speak, we give off CO2, right? Well lets start with capping off Lifer, NPT, Driver Bob, and 2631!!!

What are the flaws in the proposed legislation?

How would you eliminate the corruption inherent without any government oversight?

Give this a read. Quite interesting. His other papers are also.
Robert Stavins: Cap-and-Trade Versus the Alternatives for U.S. Climate Policy

[stoneyABF]

What are the flaws in the proposed legislation?

How would you eliminate the corruption inherent without any government oversight?

Give this a read. Quite interesting. His other papers are also.
Robert Stavins: Cap-and-Trade Versus the Alternatives for U.S. Climate Policy

OK, lets put aside that your giving me an article from the Huffington Post.

You ask what are the flaws of Cap and Trade. Well first of all is based off of bogus science of Global warming. And global Warming has pretty much been debunked. Newsmax.com - Global Warming Debunked
Second Cap and trade is about capping CO2 emissions, right? Well even if we capped CO2 at high levels, we're only capping business in the United States. And the U.S. puts out about 20% of all CO2 worldwide. So this bill won't do anything to effect the environment.
Third, there is still much debate that CO2 even pollutes. So why cap it?
And forth. This bill will absolutely kill our economy. It will totally bankrupt the coal industry.Hot Air » Blog Archive » Cap-and-trade will kill jobs, economy Now Obama wants to use more windmills and solar power. But the problem is, neither one of those power sources is as efficient, productictive, and reliable as coal and or oil.

The cost of goods will go up dramatically on almost everything. Its not just power sources that would be affected by this bill. Manufactures of goods will be affected too. This bill would tax any manufacture that release CO2 to make their product. Which is almost every manufacture. These manufactures will pass the cost on to you and I. And that's for the business's that stay here. Most business will leave for countries who don't have this ridiculous law.
So you think we don't have manufacturing jobs now. Just wait till this bill passes.
There is nothing positive about this bill. It probably worst then Obama-Care. And that's saying something!

[Franklin]

OK, lets put aside that your giving me an article from the Huffington Post.

You ask what are the flaws of Cap and Trade. Well first of all is based off of bogus science of Global warming. And global Warming has pretty much been debunked. Newsmax.com - Global Warming Debunked
Second Cap and trade is about capping CO2 emissions, right? Well even if we capped CO2 at high levels, we're only capping business in the United States. And the U.S. puts out about 20% of all CO2 worldwide. So this bill won't do anything to effect the environment.
Third, there is still much debate that CO2 even pollutes. So why cap it?
And forth. This bill will absolutely kill our economy. It will totally bankrupt the coal industry.Hot Air » Blog Archive » Cap-and-trade will kill jobs, economy Now Obama wants to use more windmills and solar power. But the problem is, neither one of those power sources is as efficient, productictive, and reliable as coal and or oil.

The cost of goods will go up dramatically on almost everything. Its not just power sources that would be affected by this bill. Manufactures of goods will be affected too. This bill would tax any manufacture that release CO2 to make their product. Which is almost every manufacture. These manufactures will pass the cost on to you and I. And that's for the business's that stay here. Most business will leave for countries who don't have this ridiculous law.
So you think we don't have manufacturing jobs now. Just wait till this bill passes.
There is nothing positive about this bill. It probably worst then Obama-Care. And that's saying something!

Let's put aside the first link coming from a right wing web page that has the likes of Dr. Laura as a blogger.

With the right people giving the money, and the right questions asked of the right people, you can get any result you can afford. You say we have more ice, reports say Polar Bears are drowning because there isn't enough ice anymore.

Right off the bat, the right is screaming armageddon because of the cap and trade. Which leads me to believe that it will have little effect on anything. Including "warming".

Myself, I don't agree with cap and trade. One reason is that other countries won't abide, and pollution knows no borders. But while the right wants to do NOTHING, I think at the very least we need to start weening ourselves from fossil fuel. Not just because of the pollution it creates, (unless you read a report from the right that says sulphur dioxide is actually good for children and orchards), and it does create pollution, but for far reaching political reasons. (However, stupid Americans still buy H3's and big fat SUV's. They must approve of jihad and Islamic law)

Wow. The filthy coal industry might die? My. That. Would. Be. Like. Really. Bad. (wink, wink)

And manufacturing would leave this country. Because insatiable Americans want 37 different brands of DVD players to choose from. They need 3 acres of clothing to paw through. But you know what, you make it unattractive for them to leave and take jobs, and maybe they won't. I'm for taxing the out of products that were once made here but have left our borders. I think we'd learn that we really don't need 37 different DVD players to choose from.

You want to know why wind and solar are not yet as efficient as coal and oil? Because they are in their infant stages and the money has not been spent in earnest to make them so. When you have an infrastructure for one or two lines of energy already in place, a competing line will of course come up short.

If we had learned from the 1973 oil "shortage", we would have started then to get away from middle east oil who can so easily pull the strings and cause serious damage to our country. But, we have short memories and cheap gas is just to much to give up. That's why we have Hummers and 6 ton SUV's. And as long as stupid people buy them, we'll just keep hammering away in places like Iraq and Afghanistan/Pakistan.

But guys, it does no good to post links from places like The Huffington Post or Fox News. Neither side will even read the other, so why bother?

[stoneyABF]

Let's put aside the first link coming from a right wing web page that has the likes of Dr. Laura as a blogger.

With the right people giving the money, and the right questions asked of the right people, you can get any result you can afford. You say we have more ice, reports say Polar Bears are drowning because there isn't enough ice anymore.

What the heck you talking about?

Right off the bat, the right is screaming armageddon because of the cap and trade. Which leads me to believe that it will have little effect on anything. Including "warming".

It won't have any affect on your ignorance. If what I said was backed up by the Teamsters, your would believe every word I said. But as we all know about union zombies like you, is that you can't think for yourself.

Myself, I don't agree with cap and trade. One reason is that other countries won't abide, and pollution knows no borders. But while the right wants to do NOTHING, I think at the very least we need to start weening ourselves from fossil fuel. Not just because of the pollution it creates, (unless you read a report from the right that says sulphur dioxide is actually good for children and orchards), and it does create pollution, but for far reaching political reasons. (However, stupid Americans still buy H3's and big fat SUV's. They must approve of jihad and Islamic law)

Same ol lie from a hateful liberal. The right always does nothing, ya right. We just not going to jump and make rash decisions on UNPROVEN science. At Least not again. Bush made that mistake with ethanol. More junk science. Scientist: Carbon Dioxide Doesn't Cause Global Warming - Washington Whispers (usnews.com)

Wow. The filthy coal industry might die? My. That. Would. Be. Like. Really. Bad. (wink, wink)

Ya wink now, but you don't realize how important the coal industry is to our economy and way of life. Do some research dude. I know you won't, because if you did any sort of research you would realize how the Teamsters/Unions have lied to you constantly. Besides, I thought you were for saving and creating good American jobs? Your Obama said this plan would bankrupt the coal industry. Oh, I know, you only care if they were union, right?

And manufacturing would leave this country. Because insatiable Americans want 37 different brands of DVD players to choose from. They need 3 acres of clothing to paw through. But you know what, you make it unattractive for them to leave and take jobs, and maybe they won't. I'm for taxing the out of products that were once made here but have left our borders. I think we'd learn that we really don't need 37 different DVD players to choose from.

Go ahead and tax the out of these companies. And when more jobs dry up and or leave, don't come crying to me. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that free trade has been good for America. Ya ya, the Teamsters say its been bad. But where do they get their facts? The water cooler, that's where. Read this....Trade Briefing Paper no. 1. The Blessings of Free Trade | Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies

You want to know why wind and solar are not yet as efficient as coal and oil? Because they are in their infant stages and the money has not been spent in earnest to make them so. When you have an infrastructure for one or two lines of energy already in place, a competing line will of course come up short.

So lets bankrupt oil and coal, and HOPE that solar and wind can takes it place. Is that the hope Obama was talking about. Its not for the government to decide who should make financially. Its up to the free market to decide. And the free marker has decided that oil and coal is our best option.
Fact is, there has been plenty of GOVERNMENT money thrown at solar and wind. Solar panels and windmills has been around 30+years. And no one has yet to find a a way to make them efficient, highly productive, and reliable. And never will. What are going to do on a nice non-windy day, or a cloudy, stormy day? You'll always need coal and oil to back up solar and wind. Unless we go nuclear power. But we all know the LEFT hates nuclear. Even though its safer, cleaner, more efficient, productive, and reliable then oil, coal, wind and solar.

If we had learned from the 1973 oil "shortage", we would have started then to get away from middle east oil who can so easily pull the strings and cause serious damage to our country. But, we have short memories and cheap gas is just to much to give up. That's why we have Hummers and 6 ton SUV's. And as long as stupid people buy them, we'll just keep hammering away in places like Iraq and Afghanistan/Pakistan.

And who don't we drill for oil here? The liberal left democrats is why. They continue to block drilling for our own oil. Newsmax.com - Senate Blocks ANWR Oil Exploration
Democrats Block GOP Bid to Keep Offshore Drilling

But guys, it does no good to post links from places like The Huffington Post or Fox News. Neither side will even read the other, so why bother?

I read the Huffington Post. They don't understand facts and logic. Like you

[222lifer]

OK, lets put aside that your giving me an article from the Huffington Post.

You ask what are the flaws of Cap and Trade. Well first of all is based off of bogus science of Global warming. And global Warming has pretty much been debunked. Newsmax.com - Global Warming Debunked
Second Cap and trade is about capping CO2 emissions, right? Well even if we capped CO2 at high levels, we're only capping business in the United States. And the U.S. puts out about 20% of all CO2 worldwide. So this bill won't do anything to effect the environment.
Third, there is still much debate that CO2 even pollutes. So why cap it?
And forth. This bill will absolutely kill our economy. It will totally bankrupt the coal industry.Hot Air » Blog Archive » Cap-and-trade will kill jobs, economy Now Obama wants to use more windmills and solar power. But the problem is, neither one of those power sources is as efficient, productictive, and reliable as coal and or oil.

The cost of goods will go up dramatically on almost everything. Its not just power sources that would be affected by this bill. Manufactures of goods will be affected too. This bill would tax any manufacture that release CO2 to make their product. Which is almost every manufacture. These manufactures will pass the cost on to you and I. And that's for the business's that stay here. Most business will leave for countries who don't have this ridiculous law.
So you think we don't have manufacturing jobs now. Just wait till this bill passes.
There is nothing positive about this bill. It probably worst then Obama-Care. And that's saying something!

What I was really hoping for was for you to read what he had to say. You didn't. You might have learned a thing or two. Very,very sad.

You are aware that Cap and Trade already exists in this country? There was a very successful program in 1990 to reduce the sulphur emissions. We live with the benefits from this program every day in this area. It also achieved the desired results at a far lower cost than predicted by industry or the government.

Now for those that are ahead of the EPA requirements there isn't much to worry about. Those that choose to continue destroying our environment will have to pay the piper. I think that is what has "big business" all worried. They will try to sell you the "America first" line but what it boils down to is that they are going to have to spend a little money in order to comply with the regulations or wave good by to their country club memberships.

Of course they will lobby and send the message that the prices will go up substantially in the manufacturing sector. Have you seen the price of the Hershey's candy go down since they moved operations to Mexico? The price is still the same isn't it? The manufacturing regulations are more lax there than in the states. The cost of manufacturing is lower. The wages they pay are lower yet consumers still pay the same amount for their candy. I am all for taxing the living daylights out of companies that have moved operations elsewhere and market their products in the United States. Make them think twice for ever moving.

CO 2 and other emissions. We have a huge copper smelter just west of where I live. The mountains behind it to the west were once covered with pines and aspens. Sage brush had trouble surviving there after the smelter was put into operation. The same goes for the North Skull Valley area of Rowley Utah. There is a magnesium plant there and ATI is building a state of the art titanium plant adjacent to the magnesium plant. The sage brush is dead in the valley there. The emissions have destroyed most of the vegetation leaving little more than salt grass to grow. It is quite an un nerving feeling when they hand you a respirator at the gate when you are making a delivery.

The smelter is one of the cleanest in the world now. Vegetation is returning to the mountains behind the smelter. Trees that have been re-planted there survive. The same will be for the Skull Valley area where the titanium plant is. Once the operation is in full swing the native plants will return.

Do you remember the Olympics in Beijing China? Now tell me nothing needs to be done with the air quality and emissions into our environment in the United States.

The last couple of years have seen some incredible growth in alternative energy sources in our area in particular. The big wind mills are sprouting up all over Utah and Wyoming. Yep, the same places we have gas and oil rigs as far as the eye can see. There must be 30 of the big wind catchers just east of the "sisters" in Wyoming.

[Franklin]

[QUOTE=stoneyABF;734129]

What the heck you talking about?

That when you put up studies and "scientists" supporting your side, they are just as biased as studies and "scientists" from my side. Except on my side, we didn't have corporations funding the studies.

It won't have any affect on your ignorance. If what I said was backed up by the Teamsters, your would believe every word I said. But as we all know about union zombies like you, is that you can't think for yourself.

First of all, I am not a Teamster. I've never been a Teamster. I work for a non-union company and have for quite some time. (FedEx Freight). So any insight you think you have of me because you think I'm a Teamster, your arguments go right out of the window. And I don't accept any one's argument just because they say so.

Same ol lie from a hateful liberal. The right always does nothing, ya right. We just not going to jump and make rash decisions on UNPROVEN science. At Least not again. Bush made that mistake with ethanol. More junk science. Scientist: Carbon Dioxide Doesn't Cause Global Warming - Washington Whispers (usnews.com)

Leighton Steward, the guy the article you link to.....

H. Leighton Steward
Director
EOG Resources, Incorporated
Houston , TX
Sector: BASIC MATERIALS / Independent Oil & Gas

74 Years Old
Mr. Steward is author-partner of Sugar Busters, LLC, a provider of seminars, books and products related to helping people follow a healthy and nutritious lifestyle. He retired from Burlington Resources, Inc., an oil and gas exploration, production and development company, in 2000, where he had served as Vice Chairman since 1997. Mr. Steward is former Chairman of the U.S. Oil and Gas Association and the Natural Gas Supply Association, and is currently an honorary director of the American Petroleum Institute.

Here's his website:

EOG - EOG Resources, Inc. - Stock Quote Analysis At A Glance - Forbes.com

This is exactly what I mean. You prop up a guy who works in the fossil fuel industry, telling us that emissions are actually good for us, and that is the basis for your opinion. It would be like me using someone in an eco-terrorist movement explain why burning down homes is a good thing for the environment.

Ya wink now, but you don't realize how important the coal industry is to our economy and way of life. Do some research dude. I know you won't, because if you did any sort of research you would realize how the Teamsters/Unions have lied to you constantly. Besides, I thought you were for saving and creating good American jobs? Your Obama said this plan would bankrupt the coal industry. Oh, I know, you only care if they were union, right?

Again with the Union. I know the coal industry is important to our economy. So were the auto makers and you would have let them die. The reason they are important is as I stated in my other post. We have the infrastructure which makes it easier to get their dirty power to the market where it's needed. What you fail to understand is that if we want to get out from under the middle east and it's jihadist's, we have to move away from the old ways of obtaining power. Coal is dirty. Look at China. Oil keeps us close to the people that want to kill your children. If you would rather lay in bed with those that would kill you, you're welcome to move to the middle east. I'd rather not send my money to them, but right now, I don't have a choice.

Go ahead and tax the out of these companies. And when more jobs dry up and or leave, don't come crying to me. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that free trade has been good for America. Ya ya, the Teamsters say its been bad. But where do they get their facts? The water cooler, that's where. Read this....Trade Briefing Paper no. 1. The Blessings of Free Trade | Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies

That article was written in May, 1998. The website it sits on wants unfettered trade with as few restrictions as possible. They support the very draining of American manufacturing to other countries that you use to show how bad cap and trade is. Here is the link to the CATO Handbook. (They are prominent on the web page you linked to.) http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb109/hb_109-64.pdf

Dude, do your own research. I can find just as many left leaning websites that support my views.

So lets bankrupt oil and coal, and HOPE that solar and wind can takes it place. Is that the hope Obama was talking about. Its not for the government to decide who should make financially. Its up to the free market to decide. And the free marker has decided that oil and coal is our best option.

And there's the rub. You accept people with a vested interest, (profit), tell our country how things are going to work. As an American, I'm offended by your comment, "and HOPE that solar and wind can takes (sic) it place." I don't think there is anything America can't do. I'm sorry you have no faith in the American will and spirit. I'd rather the people run this country and not oil and coal giants.

Fact is, there has been plenty of GOVERNMENT money thrown at solar and wind. Solar panels and windmills has been around 30+years. And no one has yet to find a a way to make them efficient, highly productive, and reliable. And never will. What are going to do on a nice non-windy day, or a cloudy, stormy day? You'll always need coal and oil to back up solar and wind. Unless we go nuclear power. But we all know the LEFT hates nuclear. Even though its safer, cleaner, more efficient, productive, and reliable then oil, coal, wind and solar.

No, not enough money has been spent, and there wasn't the incentive of middle east crazies telling us how much energy we can have 30 years ago. Read your history on WWII and see what this country did to pull together to win. I'm sorry you have no faith in your fellow Americans to do it again. Why do you hate America?

The extreme left hates nuclear. I'm for it. But I'm also for a safe way to handle the waste. I think places like Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran would be a great place to dump our waste.

And who don't we drill for oil here? The liberal left democrats is why. They continue to block drilling for our own oil. Newsmax.com - Senate Blocks ANWR Oil Exploration
Democrats Block GOP Bid to Keep Offshore Drilling

Another link to that right wing website. Do some research and learn about the quality of oil in ANWR. We can't process it here unless we send it to Texas. Instead, how about we use what we have more wisely? Instead of buying vehicles that get lousy gas mileage, how about making mass transit workable and attractive? The reason we won't is because the right wants everything to stay the same because their leaders, (big business), want it that way.

I read the Huffington Post. They don't understand facts and logic. Like you

You get your facts where you find it comfortable. Right wing websites that hate America and want it to fail. I get my information from both sides. I find that the answer almost always falls somewhere in the middle. From the left wacko side, to the homophobic spewing of the extreme right, the answers lay to the problems of this country. You prefer the hate and fear tactics used by the right. I prefer to reason things out on my own.

Again, why do you hate America?