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ABF | ELD traffic jams and other extended delays

Well.....You have a point. The original intent of logbooks was to keep....companies,...from abusing drivers by allowing the....drivers legal control over their hours of service.

Companies , over the years,......turned the idea of driver-kept logbooks into a........."punishment" of sorts,...by saying sanctimoniously,..that "The government is limiting your earnings by limiting your hours..."
..and they created an atmosphere where most drivers regarded logs as an enemy to be ...defeated,....as opposed to protection against abuse.

Logs HAVE to be...."certified".....by the driver,......which creates the legal trap for the driver of "falsifying logs".....in the event of a Legal action against the company and/or the driver......

When companies stick their busy little noses into the Hours of Service rules,.........as we see with the non-Union companies dictating when and where to use the 34-hour restart....(...to benefit the COMPANY,...not the driver...)....
.....we see exactly how the companies regard Hours of Service,....which is an impediment to using and abusing the driver to the fullest extent of his....physical capabilities.......and to Hell with his family life, safety,...and paycheck..(..no "overtime" in mileage pay..)...

Best of both "worlds" is when companies can push you to your limit,.....and still place the liability on the DRIVER in the event of the driver exceeding his capabilities, and having an accident.

We have to be careful about company "intrusion" into logbook entries that the .....driver....is responsible for......
.....And remember,...that companies do not have the...best intentions..as far as their use of driver's time....(..or pay..)....
 
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canaryinthemine said:
Well.....You have a point. The original intent of logbooks was to keep....companies,...from abusing drivers by allowing the....drivers legal control over their hours of service.

Companies , over the years,......turned the idea of driver-kept logbooks into a........."punishment" of sorts,...by saying sanctimoniously,..that "The government is limiting your earnings by limiting your hours..."
..and they created an atmosphere where most drivers regarded logs as an enemy to be ...defeated,....as opposed to protection against abuse.

Logs HAVE to be...."certified".....by the driver,......which creates the legal trap for the driver of "falsifying logs".....in the event of a Legal action against the company and/or the driver......

When companies stick their busy little noses into the Hours of Service rules,.........as we see with the non-Union companies dictating when and where to use the 34-hour restart....(...to benefit the COMPANY,...not the driver...)....
.....we see exactly how the companies regard Hours of Service,....which is an impediment to using and abusing the driver to the fullest extent of his....physical capabilities.......and to Hell with his family life, safety,...and paycheck..(..no "overtime" in mileage pay..)...

Best of both "worlds" is when companies can push you to your limit,.....and still place the liability on the DRIVER in the event of the driver exceeding his capabilities, and having an accident.

We have to be careful about company "intrusion" into logbook entries that the .....driver....is responsible for......
.....And remember,...that companies do not have the...best intentions..as far as their use of driver's time....(..or pay..)....
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It is more basic than that, by forcing a driver to put time on the "on duty" line this extends a drivers legal driving hours beyond the legal 11 hours driving time. It does put liability, if involved in an accident, onto the driver because the driver knows he has driven or been behind the wheel of a tractor longer than the legal limit.
 
Triplex said:
You need a hobby!

PS - What do you think about the possibility of an asteroid striking earth?
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I’m gonna have to go with Homesick on this one... with the litigious nature of our society, you have to be a little paranoid. When the argument “you shouldn’t have been there because of your logbook” can swing a case from a gross act of negligence by the other party to the fault of the driver minding his own business, well, I think that speaks for itself.
 
Songremainsthesame said:
I’m gonna have to go with Homesick on this one... with the litigious nature of our society, you have to be a little paranoid. When the argument “you shouldn’t have been there because of your logbook” can swing a case from a gross act of negligence by the other party to the fault of the driver minding his own business, well, I think that speaks for itself.
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It's a shame that this ..."occupation"....has to factor in,....on a daily basis,......the liability quotient to the employee,...and the shark-like quantity of predatory lawyers circling your.....job and private finances......

Hard to think of any other blue-collar..."occupation".....with as big of a liability risk.

And,....of course, the corporate answer is : "How can we evade any responsibility?...."

How many drivers out there blithely traipse on down the public streets,.....completely unaware that their homeowner's insurance may be...on the line? If you don't....think about something,..it doesn't exist?
 
Songremainsthesame said:
I’m gonna have to go with Homesick on this one... with the litigious nature of our society, you have to be a little paranoid. When the argument “you shouldn’t have been there because of your logbook” can swing a case from a gross act of negligence by the other party to the fault of the driver minding his own business, well, I think that speaks for itself.
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What does the ELD going from "driving" to "on duty" and back in slow moving traffic have to do with your reference to "you shouldn't have been there because of your logbook"? I must be missing something here. For sure I'm missing (thankfully) some of the paranoia which seems to infecting some.
 
Triplex said:
What does the ELD going from "driving" to "on duty" and back in slow moving traffic have to do with your reference to "you shouldn't have been there because of your logbook"? I must be missing something here. For sure I'm missing (thankfully) some of the paranoia which seems to infecting some.
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Well,....it used to be that with....paper logs....a driver had about a 7.5 minute "window"...to change his status....legally.
Reason was that it was....physically, logistically impossible to...draw a line for a period on your paper log less than 15 minutes,.....or instantly. That was the shortest period you could......draw.

Now,.....companies can......and HAVE....disciplined guys for "theft of time"....for periods less than......a minute. A digital clock can ....pinpoint....the employee's time right down to the second. A paper log,...based on an analog clock, can not.

Now,.....give some shark ambulance-chasing attorney,...in a large-settlement accident case,....the ability to...pinpoint to the second any driver's duty change status,....and that driver's "failure" to...."accurately" record his changes......
....And do it in a Jury trial, with civilians who don't understand ELD's,.....and are primed to think of truck drivers as predatory law-breakers.....(...You've seen the commercials on TV.......PAID FOR by those very same Lawyers...)........

Guilty! Mr. Truck Driver,......for a 30 second lapse in your responsibilities..........

Is it a.....possibility? Let's ask an Accident and Injury Lawyer..........
 
canaryinthemine said:
Well,....it used to be that with....paper logs....a driver had about a 7.5 minute "window"...to change his status....legally.
Reason was that it was....physically, logistically impossible to...draw a line for a period on your paper log less than 15 minutes,.....or instantly. That was the shortest period you could......draw.

Now,.....companies can......and HAVE....disciplined guys for "theft of time"....for periods less than......a minute. A digital clock can ....pinpoint....the employee's time right down to the second. A paper log,...based on an analog clock, can not.

Now,.....give some shark ambulance-chasing attorney,...in a large-settlement accident case,....the ability to...pinpoint to the second any driver's duty change status,....and that driver's "failure" to...."accurately" record his changes......
....And do it in a Jury trial, with civilians who don't understand ELD's,.....and are primed to think of truck drivers as predatory law-breakers.....(...You've seen the commercials on TV.......PAID FOR by those very same Lawyers...)........

Guilty! Mr. Truck Driver,......for a 30 second lapse in your responsibilities..........

Is it a.....possibility? Let's ask an Accident and Injury Lawyer..........
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No offense Canary, but I'd hate to go through life as paranoid as you appear to be.
 
canaryinthemine said:
Well,....it used to be that with....paper logs....a driver had about a 7.5 minute "window"...to change his status....legally.
Reason was that it was....physically, logistically impossible to...draw a line for a period on your paper log less than 15 minutes,.....or instantly. That was the shortest period you could......draw.

Now,.....companies can......and HAVE....disciplined guys for "theft of time"....for periods less than......a minute. A digital clock can ....pinpoint....the employee's time right down to the second. A paper log,...based on an analog clock, can not.

Now,.....give some shark ambulance-chasing attorney,...in a large-settlement accident case,....the ability to...pinpoint to the second any driver's duty change status,....and that driver's "failure" to...."accurately" record his changes......
....And do it in a Jury trial, with civilians who don't understand ELD's,.....and are primed to think of truck drivers as predatory law-breakers.....(...You've seen the commercials on TV.......PAID FOR by those very same Lawyers...)........

Guilty! Mr. Truck Driver,......for a 30 second lapse in your responsibilities..........

Is it a.....possibility? Let's ask an Accident and Injury Lawyer..........
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Being a lawyer, I would answer your question, but first I would need a retainer.
As for the on duty logging, PIE required all time not driving,except a 1 hr meal period, on duty, unless they relieved you, this had to be an emergency.
If not for this, we had guys that would work 100 hrs each week.
BTW, my lack of knowledge with ELD, 34 hr restart and the other mumbo,jumbo, would fill a very large book.
 
Triplex said:
What does the ELD going from "driving" to "on duty" and back in slow moving traffic have to do with your reference to "you shouldn't have been there because of your logbook"? I must be missing something here. For sure I'm missing (thankfully) some of the paranoia which seems to infecting some.
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I may not have verbalized what I meant 100% correctly, what I meant is that all time spent behind the wheel is to be logged on line 3. If the Elog puts you on line 4 and you are behind the wheel on a public roadway you are technically falsifying your log. It may be an unlikely possibility, but in theory you could be involed in an accident and be on the wrong duty status. Again, this may be a remote possibility, but every moment we are on the road we are exposed to the possibility of accidents. A small detail such as your duty status on your log could mean the difference between you being held liable or not. In that case, remote as it may be, I would much rather be safe than sorry.
 
Songremainsthesame said:
I may not have verbalized what I meant 100% correctly, what I meant is that all time spent behind the wheel is to be logged on line 3. If the Elog puts you on line 4 and you are behind the wheel on a public roadway you are technically falsifying your log. It may be an unlikely possibility, but in theory you could be involed in an accident and be on the wrong duty status. Again, this may be a remote possibility, but every moment we are on the road we are exposed to the possibility of accidents. A small detail such as your duty status on your log could mean the difference between you being held liable or not. In that case, remote as it may be, I would much rather be safe than sorry.
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Point taken, but doesn't your Elog give the driver the option of overriding it (keeping it in "driving" mode) when it gives the warning that it's going into "on duty" status when it detects no vehicle movement?
 
Triplex said:
No offense Canary, but I'd hate to go through life as paranoid as you appear to be.
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Paranoia is a relative term........Your relatives cause it.......

Seriously,.......sometimes life experiences can cause what appears to be........paranoia to one person......
......appear to another person as mere prudent caution....

Maybe you’ve never dealt with predatory lawyers........Maybe you’re chummy with management,....and think they would never use........anything.......to alleviate company liability.....at your expense........without your permission......because they like you so much.......

Maybe that’s why I’m so broke........In my youth, I was just such a trusting soul......
........and then I became an O/O........

........(.....after an NLRB suit ......).....

I applaud you for your sunny, trusting outlook on Life........The world needs more innocent souls........
 
canaryinthemine said:
Paranoia is a relative term........Your relatives cause it.......

Seriously,.......sometimes life experiences can cause what appears to be........paranoia to one person......
......appear to another person as mere prudent caution....

Maybe you’ve never dealt with predatory lawyers........Maybe you’re chummy with management,....and think they would never use........anything.......to alleviate company liability.....at your expense........without your permission......because they like you so much.......

Maybe that’s why I’m so broke........In my youth, I was just such a trusting soul......
........and then I became an O/O........

........(.....after an NLRB suit ......).....

I applaud you for your sunny, trusting outlook on Life........The world needs more innocent souls........
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You have no idea of my past experiences with management. Going to court and winning (at the appellate level, all on my own dime) when even my union (Teamsters of course) wouldn't back me should quench any false ideas you may have about me. :smile new:
 
Triplex said:
Point taken, but doesn't your Elog give the driver the option of overriding it (keeping it in "driving" mode) when it gives the warning that it's going into "on duty" status when it detects no vehicle movement?
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It depends on the system and how whoever administers the system have the code written. I have had them both ways. The change from AOBRD to ELD should clear some of this up as the upcoming ELD mandate from FMCSA has clearer language on how an ELD must operate to be certified compliant by the FMCSA. The concern is a valid point . If you're not bumping the 14 hour limit, you could actually exceed 11 hours driving if the AOBRD keeps moving you off the driving status to on duty . Though a valid point, it is an unlikely scenario . But in this day and age you can't be to careful.
 
seabreeze said:
Being a lawyer, I would answer your question, but first I would need a retainer.
As for the on duty logging, PIE required all time not driving,except a 1 hr meal period, on duty, unless they relieved you, this had to be an emergency.
If not for this, we had guys that would work 100 hrs each week.
BTW, my lack of knowledge with ELD, 34 hr restart and the other mumbo,jumbo, would fill a very large book.
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Sounds familiar.."need a retainer"...and the clock starts ticking with each word spoken..take or return a phone call...well, sir that would be a 30 minute minimum...LOL!!
 
Triplex said:
What does the ELD going from "driving" to "on duty" and back in slow moving traffic have to do with your reference to "you shouldn't have been there because of your logbook"? I must be missing something here. For sure I'm missing (thankfully) some of the paranoia which seems to infecting some.
Click to expand...


Triplex said:
Point taken, but doesn't your Elog give the driver the option of overriding it (keeping it in "driving" mode) when it gives the warning that it's going into "on duty" status when it detects no vehicle movement?
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No, it automatically goes to line 4 if no movement has been detected for 3 minutes.
 
joes bar and grill said:
A better question to ask would be, should , or would an lawyer go after a truckdriver with little to zero assets or should/ would they go after the trucking company that has a minimum mandated million dollar policy knowing that the driver was acting as an agent for the company.
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duh...I would think the company...can't you see the plaintiff attorney calling all of the terminal's drivers and quizzing each one on use/misuse in the past, present and future of the logs...ELD jams, etc? I don't think it would be pretty for the company, but then all I do is turn the steering wheel...what would I know?
 
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