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I have friends that have been dealing with the VA system for years. I personal have not dealt with any part of the VA system since I got out the service.
I can tell you from my experience I wouldn't want an outside doctor again, I was going only for my service connected problems and switched, and I had good insurance. Most people that badmouth the VA have never experienced it, is it all rainbows and unicorns, hell no, but it's a lot better than private insurance. There is a lot that goes on in outside hospitals that will not be tolerated at the VA.
 
I can tell you from my experience I wouldn't want an outside doctor again, I was going only for my service connected problems and switched, and I had good insurance. Most people that badmouth the VA have never experienced it, is it all rainbows and unicorns, hell no, but it's a lot better than private insurance. There is a lot that goes on in outside hospitals that will not be tolerated at the VA.
We are in debt to our veterans and they deserve the best we can for them .
 
Because inalienable rights are granted to all of us at the moment of our birth, some would argue even at the moment of conception. The right to life. The right to choices. The right to property ownership. The right to better one's life. These are rights the Founders spoke to in the Declaration of Independence and they went on to rightly declare that it's the obligation of government to protect these rights which are inseparable from all of humanity. While good health is instrumental in a person's ability to better their own life, we don't have a right to it. Unalienable rights do not guarantee equal outcomes. Politicians promise equal outcomes and never deliver on those promises. Rather politicians create laws that create artificial rights for some at the expense of others and call it equal for everyone. This is an infringement on the inalienable rights of some to the benefit of others. The difference between an inalienable right and a govt created 'right' is that the former requires no sacrifice from one individual to another in order that it be exercised. If health care were an unalienable right, a patient could walk into a doctor's office, demand and receive service, and leave without being legally obligated to make any payment whatsoever. So when Bernie Sanders says that health care should be a right and not a privilege he's lying because what he's saying simply isn't possible. Health care like everything else we benefit from in a market economy is a payed for service, whether or not it's paid by individuals or insurance, or a combination of both. No compensation to providers, no health care. Inalienable rights are free, when a 'right' has to be paid for it's not a right, but rather it's a product or a service. So in closing I'll tie together the relationship between an inalienable right and health care. Among the rights listed in the Declaration of Independence is the right to pursue happiness. Applying that to healthcare, it's accurate to say that people have the right to seek out and obtain the best possible health care within their means.....and that's where it ends. There are no guarantees in life and government cannot create them.
Well said
 
No, that's a ridiculous interpretation of what I wrote.



In a colloquial sense, Yes. (I'm assuming you mean "redistribution")

Billionaires should not exist.



Even if this is true, they deserve the same care you or I get, and I guess this is where we diverge. I don't think those people deserve lesser or no care. This is a fundamental question about morality and the preservation of life. Some people believe that the poor should suffer and die because they are poor, some people do not. I am of the latter ilk.
Billionaires should not exist, huh?

To my way of thinking, free loaders should not exist. But if I say that, I'm an insensitive rube, right?

But you think your stance against the rich gives you a higher moral perch.

Interesting dichotomy. Rich should not exist but we should all kowtow and support the free loader with medical care that is paid for by someone else at the time said freeloader receives services.

That is communism. And it doesn't work.
 
Billionaires should not exist, huh?

Correct.

To my way of thinking, free loaders should not exist. But if I say that, I'm an insensitive rube, right?

I, too, would prefer that everybody was fully self sufficient and capable of taking care of themselves. Unfortunately this is not reality. As to the insensitive rube part... maybe?

But you think your stance against the rich gives you a higher moral perch.

As it pertains to billionaires, yes.

Rich should not exist but we should all kowtow and support the free loader with medical care that is paid for by someone else at the time said freeloader receives services.

I said billionaires should not exist. I'm not sure what has to happen for people to read the words that are written and not expand upon them in the least charitable possible way which fits their narrative, but let's all try to do whatever it is. Cool.

Kowtow and support... blahblah. Yes, we should have a single payer system which is free at the point of service (before you mumble 'but it's not really free, derr', please reread what I wrote)

That is communism.

This statement is so wrong it defies explanation.
 
Correct.



I, too, would prefer that everybody was fully self sufficient and capable of taking care of themselves. Unfortunately this is not reality. As to the insensitive rube part... maybe?



As it pertains to billionaires, yes.



I said billionaires should not exist. I'm not sure what has to happen for people to read the words that are written and not expand upon them in the least charitable possible way which fits their narrative, but let's all try to do whatever it is. Cool.

Kowtow and support... blahblah. Yes, we should have a single payer system which is free at the point of service (before you mumble 'but it's not really free, derr', please reread what I wrote)



This statement is so wrong it defies explanation.
Communism is the forced confiscation of wealth or goods from all to be distributed evenly amongst all. How does that note describe single payer health care for all? Communism is the definition of the system you describe.

Why should billionaires not exist. Where do you draw the line? Net Worth of 999,999,999.99$ and below? What about the person who's net worth is 999,999,999.98$ , they copacetic with your world view. Praytell, where do we draw the line? Life insurance counts to Net
Worth. With my life insurance policies figured in, I'm worth over 7 figures. If I die and my wife gets that money, what prevents someone from saying millionaires shouldn't exist and take her money? You want to take the billionaires money, where will you stop.
 
Why should billionaires not exist.

They shouldn't exist because it is immoral.

Where do you draw the line? Net Worth of 999,999,999.99$ and below? What about the person who's net worth is 999,999,999.98$ , they copacetic with your world view.

Yes, it should be functionally impossible to become a billionaire.

Praytell, where do we draw the line?

You only get to ask once.

Life insurance counts to Net Worth. With my life insurance policies figured in, I'm worth over 7 figures.

COOL.

If I die and my wife gets that money, what prevents someone from saying millionaires shouldn't exist and take her money?

Some are already saying that.

You want to take the billionaires money, where will you stop.

We will stop when the guillotines go dull.
 
Seriously though, single payer health care is not communism. Every other developed country in the world is not communist. It's just silly.
 
They shouldn't exist because it is immoral.


Yes, it should be functionally impossible to become a billionaire.



You only get to ask once.



COOL.



Some are already saying that.



We will stop when the guillotines go dull.
You haven't answered the question. Where's the line? 999,999,999.99? So anything below that is good?

Why is being a billionaire immoral? What does ones morals have to do with ones net worth?

You're dodging the questions. Taking from others without their consent to give to others is communism, plain and simple. That is precisely what you are advocating for when you advocate socialized healthcare.
 
You haven't answered the question. Where's the line? 999,999,999.99? So anything below that is good?

Why is being a billionaire immoral? What does ones morals have to do with ones net worth?

You're dodging the questions.

I'm not 'dodging' any questions.

I've repeatedly told you the line. Billionaires should not exist. That is a pretty unambiguous statement. So one penny less than that can exist. Every penny over 999,999,999.99 is taxed at 100%.
 
Did you not read what I wrote? I'm talking about the United States and i even specified Americans to avoid some goober making this silly ass argument.

But if you wanna talk about a worldwide health system, I am game, comrade.


Also it's a bit of a stretch to say we have the best medical care on earth.
Belittle and besmirch all you like; my argument holds true. Whether you mention Americans or not is irrelevant because your underlying principle transcends borders. Your argument is that free healthcare is a human right correct?
Further, I did read what you wrote; just found it to be illogical.
You seem convinced that socialist nations have better health care based on articles you’ve read. I put little faith in what “experts” write because they will have a bias and write pointed toward furthering their worldview. I prefer to take the opinions of people who have lived there and here who can make a firsthand comparison of their experience with both.
 
I don't understand why conservatives don't like the idea of Medicare for All. No more tied to some crappy job just for the benefits. Now they can all start their own businesses and/or be successful without worrying about going bankrupt from getting sick. Free from the corporate handcuffs, how many people would work for themselves or get a different job if not worrying about medical insurance?
 
I don't understand why conservatives don't like the idea of Medicare for All. No more tied to some crappy job just for the benefits. Now they can all start their own businesses and/or be successful without worrying about going bankrupt from getting sick. Free from the corporate handcuffs, how many people would work for themselves or get a different job if not worrying about medical insurance?
I would prefer the option of purchasing catastrophic care insurance and paying direct out of pocket for day to day care as my family of 6 has done numerous times except that Obummer's Obamacare made that illegal
 
Health insurance should be sold and purchased the same way I purchase insurance for my life home or car. Free market. I can shop for the plan that suits me. I can purchase the plan that suits me. A no frills basic plan can be put in places to help those down in their luck. If I want to purchase better insurance for my family I can. Called capitalism and free market as opposed to the communist model you advocate!

One penny the difference, sheesh! Arbitrary and capricious not to mention absolutely silly!
 
Belittle and besmirch all you like; my argument holds true. Whether you mention Americans or not is irrelevant because your underlying principle transcends borders. Your argument is that free healthcare is a human right correct?
Further, I did read what you wrote; just found it to be illogical.
You seem convinced that socialist nations have better health care based on articles you’ve read. I put little faith in what “experts” write because they will have a bias and write pointed toward furthering their worldview. I prefer to take the opinions of people who have lived there and here who can make a firsthand comparison of their experience with both.
Yep! I have close friends that came from Germany. They prefer our healthcare hands down over what they had over there. Came here of their own volition and know more about the founding principals of this country than most natural born Americans I know
 
Yep! I have close friends that came from Germany. They prefer our healthcare hands down over what they had over there. Came here of their own volition and know more about the founding principals of this country than most natural born Americans I know

Oh my god, that's si wild!

Weird that I know a German family who moved here and they abhor our health system. And my old neighbor was british who moved here for work and he preferred the NHS system. And my family is from Canada and none of them seem to be joining for our system either.

It's almost like personal anecdotes aren't really a great indicator, amiright?
 
Health insurance should be sold and purchased the same way I purchase insurance for my life home or car. Free market. I can shop for the plan that suits me. I can purchase the plan that suits me. A no frills basic plan can be put in places to help those down in their luck. If I want to purchase better insurance for my family I can. Called capitalism and free market as opposed to the communist model you advocate!

One penny the difference, sheesh! Arbitrary and capricious not to mention absolutely silly!

Markets don't work in healthcare. That's just a plain fact.

All lines between legal and illegal, moral and immoral, tend to be arbitrary. There is a one cent line between a misdemeanor and a felony, for example. Somebody just decided on that amount and wrote it down.
 
You seem convinced that socialist nations have better health care based on articles you’ve read. I put little faith in what “experts” write because they will have a bias and write pointed toward furthering their worldview. I prefer to take the opinions of people who have lived there and here who can make a firsthand comparison of their experience with both.

Yes, the US ranks very low on every metric of health and healthcare. Every country that is ranked above us has some form of nationalized healthcare.

I have personally known a few, not a ton but a few, people from other countries in europe and asia. They were not thrilled with our system of healthcare, from the few convos we had (this was before I was interested in the subject). In fact two of them actually flew back to England to seek care rather than deal with the American system that they had access to from work. One for cancer and the other for a less serious issue.

If you are looking for anecdotes look for ones that go against your instincts as well.
 
I don't understand why conservatives don't like the idea of Medicare for All. No more tied to some crappy job just for the benefits. Now they can all start their own businesses and/or be successful without worrying about going bankrupt from getting sick. Free from the corporate handcuffs, how many people would work for themselves or get a different job if not worrying about medical insurance?
Probably my second most important aspect of a single payer system. To disconnect work from healthcare would be one of the greatest leaps towards freedom that my generation has been able to make.
 
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