XPO | Heated wiper blades / safety

Rat, before we continue to argue, please clarify one thing for me. What do you consider the difference is between "essential" and "necessary"? This is not a poke or dig, people talk different everywhere and I think we have a language barrier here. Around these parts, essential and necessary are synonyms, along with words like indispensable, dire, imperative, etc. Simply defined as, impossibility of a contrary order or condition. I ask this because you argue that they are necessary, but not essential. Some people say things like a "I need a cup of coffee", in reality they want a cup of coffee, they may really really desire a cup of coffee, we all know that they wont die without it. Some people say, "It needs fixed.", which I don't like. I say, "It needs to be fixed." They're not wrong, I just don't talk that way.

I agree that air tools are not necessary, because it is not impossible to do my job without them. I've had air tools break, I did not stop working until they got repaired or replaced. If they were necessary, the job would not have gotten done without them. I am more productive with air tools and the benefits outweigh the cost. We do not use tire changers, they are far to expensive for the amount of tires we change, so we still use spoons because the cost outweighs the benefits.

Whether or not I've driven trucks or not is irrelevant, but I have. I also remember the 290 Cummins very well, but that doesn't matter either. It has nothing to do with the drivers on the road right now running without mirror heat.

If anyone is saying that you absolutely have to have them, I disagree. If you're saying that the they make the job easier and are safer, I agree. I do however stand firm that the job can be done without them, making them not absolutely necessary.

Oh, one more thing, I don't dislike you Rat, but I would not vote for you for president.
 
Don't have any need for heated wiper blades, but the heated mirrors sure come in handy. Its raining all day today, and its only 50°. Idk about the snow and ice, but they sure do help in the rain.
 
I have an idea , on thoses natural gas trucks . Just pipe in a line that lead towards the windshield with an electric pilot and when u need it u light it and it would be like a flame thrower on the windshield and all the snoww would dissapear . Use when needed :) . Prob not good of u had hazmat :/
 
Rat, before we continue to argue, please clarify one thing for me. What do you consider the difference is between "essential" and "necessary"? This is not a poke or dig, people talk different everywhere and I think we have a language barrier here. Around these parts, essential and necessary are synonyms, along with words like indispensable, dire, imperative, etc. Simply defined as, impossibility of a contrary order or condition. I ask this because you argue that they are necessary, but not essential. Some people say things like a "I need a cup of coffee", in reality they want a cup of coffee, they may really really desire a cup of coffee, we all know that they wont die without it. Some people say, "It needs fixed.", which I don't like. I say, "It needs to be fixed." They're not wrong, I just don't talk that way.

I agree that air tools are not necessary, because it is not impossible to do my job without them. I've had air tools break, I did not stop working until they got repaired or replaced. If they were necessary, the job would not have gotten done without them. I am more productive with air tools and the benefits outweigh the cost. We do not use tire changers, they are far to expensive for the amount of tires we change, so we still use spoons because the cost outweighs the benefits.

Whether or not I've driven trucks or not is irrelevant, but I have. I also remember the 290 Cummins very well, but that doesn't matter either. It has nothing to do with the drivers on the road right now running without mirror heat.

If anyone is saying that you absolutely have to have them, I disagree. If you're saying that the they make the job easier and are safer, I agree. I do however stand firm that the job can be done without them, making them not absolutely necessary.

Oh, one more thing, I don't dislike you Rat, but I would not vote for you for president.

People used to deliver with horse and buggy. So I guess the trucks themselves are not absolutely neccesary ? ( sarcasm )

With the way the laws are being written now. I would say any advantage to safety is neccesary.

They are forcing the stuff we don't want. Lane departure and impact avoidance. Why can't we force the few things we do ? Clean glass is not to much to ask for.
 
People used to deliver with horse and buggy. So I guess the trucks themselves are not absolutely neccesary ? ( sarcasm )

With the way the laws are being written now. I would say any advantage to safety is neccesary.

They are forcing the stuff we don't want. Lane departure and impact avoidance. Why can't we force the few things we do ? Clean glass is not to much to ask for.

I disagree, ANY advantage to safety is not necessary. If it were then we should all stop driving in the rain and snow altogether because it's not as safe as dry roads? I can list a lot of ridiculous things that will have more downsides than good, even though they would save lives on our roads. It all about compromise. You do not like lane departure warnings or impact avoidance devices, but CW was convinced that it would reduce accidents, so according to you, they are necessary. Do you like wearing a seat belt on a forklift? If it's safer, just do it.

I don't understand what you mean by "Why can't we force the few things we do? If it means why can't you have heated mirrors? I never said that you couldn't have them. What I said is that the job could still get done without them, so they are not absolutely needed. Some people here are acting like if they were driving in freezing rain and the heated mirrors stopped working, all is lost, it is impossible to drive to the truck any further. I repaired heated mirrors many times in my 9 years at CW and I never heard of a road call for them. Not all of them stopped working as they entered the shop, they were driven to the shop that way. It was never an issue to fix them, I just find it funny how you guys can say they are a necessity, yet most of you have done the job without them.

ABS is a very important safety feature (more than mirror heat) and it effectiveness is proven, but a lot of drivers ignore or put tape over that warning light and keep right on going. When I was at CW, more drivers ignored it than wrote it up and brought it to a shop. We didn't know it until the truck came for PM and see codes logged starting weeks earlier. Is ABS necessary? Obviously not, but it is a lot safer. If I had to choose between ABS or Heated mirrors, I'd chose ABS. Another driver without heated mirrors might cut me off and I'd have to brake hard. How many of you have been in a skid on slippery roads with and without ABS? There is a big difference in control. On the other hand, almost every driver at CW wrote up when the heated mirrors didn't work. I recall a few times where a driver brought in a trucks for so called safety issues (A/C not working, heated mirrors, shifter boot leaking, etc), but got pissed when the truck was not done in time because we had to fix the ABS light that was on also. One guy even told me that he didn't care about that. My reply was, it's not illegal to run with cold air blowing in a torn boot, it is illegal to run without ABS. Don't pull the safety card with fumes in cab, then knowing drive a truck with a known DOT violation. If you're going to cry safety, go all in, don't be selective. I think the issue is that poor visibly slows you down, fumes, cold air or no A/C is uncomfortable, but an ABS light doesn't affect the driver much, so they don't care as much, but they should.

I wont comment on the horse & buggy, that's already been gone over and isn't any less ridiculous now. I haven't read anything so far that has changed my mind. IMO, if you cannot drive a truck in the winter without heated mirrors, you're not a good driver. I agree that they are a time saver, and are safer, but not mandatory, necessary, essential, or any other word that means the same thing.
 
Shop Leader:

I respect your opinion on maintenance issues, but this is a driving issue. You are the only one who doesn't think heated mirrors are a necessity.
 
Shop Leader:

I respect your opinion on maintenance issues, but this is a driving issue. You are the only one who doesn't think heated mirrors are a necessity.

That's OK, common sense is not always right, it's just common. There is no self respect in changing ones mind only because they're out numbered. There is self respect in logically arguing a point, if my opinions change, I will admit it, but I have seen nothing to do that. Not one person can give me a real example of stopping on the road and calling for service when the mirrors got cold. Many of us had a cold ride home with fogging windshields when the blower motor died or heater core stared leaking and we shut the valves off to get home (don't even try to tell that drivers haven't done that). IMO, defrosters are a little more important than heated mirrors. Is heat necessary? No. Very important? Yes. I can remember a few cases where a driver got a truck home in bad weather with no heat, I can also remember having to do road calls for no heat, but I have never had to a do a road call for heated mirrors.

I really don't understand why people can't just admit that they can drive a truck if they have to without them. Rat says he did it for years, he also said it wasn't pleasant, which is correct. I'm sure he could again if he had to. It's happening right now. A good 10% of trucks on the road doesn't have them right now.

My point is, dot not exaggerate to make a point. I understand the importance of heated mirrors, but I do not understand the need. So if anyone wants to change my mind, don't argue the importance, they make your job safer and more productive, I get it. But why are they needed?
 
That's OK, common sense is not always right, it's just common. There is no self respect in changing ones mind only because they're out numbered. There is self respect in logically arguing a point, if my opinions change, I will admit it, but I have seen nothing to do that. Not one person can give me a real example of stopping on the road and calling for service when the mirrors got cold. Many of us had a cold ride home with fogging windshields when the blower motor died or heater core stared leaking and we shut the valves off to get home (don't even try to tell that drivers haven't done that). IMO, defrosters are a little more important than heated mirrors. Is heat necessary? No. Very important? Yes. I can remember a few cases where a driver got a truck home in bad weather with no heat, I can also remember having to do road calls for no heat, but I have never had to a do a road call for heated mirrors.

I really don't understand why people can't just admit that they can drive a truck if they have to without them. Rat says he did it for years, he also said it wasn't pleasant, which is correct. I'm sure he could again if he had to. It's happening right now. A good 10% of trucks on the road doesn't have them right now.

My point is, dot not exaggerate to make a point. I understand the importance of heated mirrors, but I do not understand the need. So if anyone wants to change my mind, don't argue the importance, they make your job safer and more productive, I get it. But why are they needed?

Why is it that part of your pre-trip, your annual, and any roadside inspection requires that you have a functioning defroster then? Heated mirrors are a necessity nowadays, in the eyes of safety. We don't need maxi pots either, but they are a necessity in the eyes of safety. We don't need collision avoidance or lane control either, but they are still a necessity in the eyes of safety, same with heated mirrors. Sure, some of the wrmer southern climates can live without them, or some of the mid level climates can get by for a month or so of bad weather. I live in this reality for six months a year, they are a necessity. Should they be a roadside, shut the truck down safety concern? No, but they should be repaired/replaced when it is feasable.
 
That's OK, common sense is not always right, it's just common. There is no self respect in changing ones mind only because they're out numbered. There is self respect in logically arguing a point, if my opinions change, I will admit it, but I have seen nothing to do that. Not one person can give me a real example of stopping on the road and calling for service when the mirrors got cold. Many of us had a cold ride home with fogging windshields when the blower motor died or heater core stared leaking and we shut the valves off to get home (don't even try to tell that drivers haven't done that). IMO, defrosters are a little more important than heated mirrors. Is heat necessary? No. Very important? Yes. I can remember a few cases where a driver got a truck home in bad weather with no heat, I can also remember having to do road calls for no heat, but I have never had to a do a road call for heated mirrors.

I really don't understand why people can't just admit that they can drive a truck if they have to without them. Rat says he did it for years, he also said it wasn't pleasant, which is correct. I'm sure he could again if he had to. It's happening right now. A good 10% of trucks on the road doesn't have them right now.

My point is, dot not exaggerate to make a point. I understand the importance of heated mirrors, but I do not understand the need. So if anyone wants to change my mind, don't argue the importance, they make your job safer and more productive, I get it. But why are they needed?

Get Heated Windshield Wipers - YouTube
 
Why is it that part of your pre-trip, your annual, and any roadside inspection requires that you have a functioning defroster then? Heated mirrors are a necessity nowadays, in the eyes of safety. We don't need maxi pots either, but they are a necessity in the eyes of safety. We don't need collision avoidance or lane control either, but they are still a necessity in the eyes of safety, same with heated mirrors. Sure, some of the wrmer southern climates can live without them, or some of the mid level climates can get by for a month or so of bad weather. I live in this reality for six months a year, they are a necessity. Should they be a roadside, shut the truck down safety concern? No, but they should be repaired/replaced when it is feasable.

Defrosters are require by law, heated mirrors are not, that was my whole point. Have you ever, or heard of anyone driving a truck without heat? I have and I've done it to get it home. The point was that many drivers will do it to save a road call, but apparently driving without heated mirrors is out of the question? No, it's not, there are a lot of things done far worse than driving with cold mirrors that many might agree is OK to get by unitl it feasable to fix them.

I know you get the point, your last 2 sentences are exacly what I've been saying. If it'snot feasable to fix now, you'll drive it, but want them fixed as soon as possible.

I am willing to bet that heated wiper blades will get better and and cheaper, then become popular. 20-30 years from now people will think they are necessary and people like us will look back and say they're babies, we didn't have that stuff. I guess this becasue I can rember in the early 90's the same types of conversations on heated mirrors. They weren't very good, and very expensive. 10 years later, they were good and cheap. I'll probably be dead by then, so I wont be involved the the heated wiper blade argument though.
 
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What an absurd argument.

It is obvious you HAVE NEVER been behind the wheel of a combination/CMV in freezing rain/fog, whiteouts, or any other number of meteorological events that may adversely affect a driver's ability to have the required visual information needed to make safe and intelligent decisions during his/her tour of duty.

Mirrors are windows of information...what is beside and behind the vehicle. They provide the driver with real time observations of the traffic and safety conditions within the the influence of their combination vehicle. Without a clear and concise viewpoint the driver is blind and his/her judgement is severely impaired. Clear and viewable mirrors are NOT AN OPTION...they are an absolute necessity...it is a safety issue.

You should know better.

I started in this business 35 years ago...and yes...there were no heated mirrors. The first time I used heated mirrors was a bit of a spiritual epiphany. They were on a new COE Cornbinder with fine shiny 290 and a ten speed with the little switch on the shifter as opposed to the asinine pull up valve located below the shifter handle. You may be too young to remember those days...but I remember them well.

Before heated mirrors we had to stop every five to ten miles to scrape the ice and snow off the mirrors...or trying to perform said task whilst driving on the interstate window down...scraper in hand...freezing our hands...so we could use our mirrors...more times than not it didn't work...but we tried!!!

Drivers turned on their signals a half mile ahead of their intended move...hoping everything went well...as they could not see out their mirrors. We knew they couldn't effectively use their mirrors as we couldn't use ours...so we backed off and everyone gave the other driver lots of room to maneuver. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.

It sucked!!!

I have seen more than my share of near accidents and vehicles ran off the road due to the fact (that prior to heated mirrors) drivers could not see out their mirrors.

All CMVs should be retrofitted with heated mirrors...and it should be a DOT mandate that ALL CMVs manufactured after a certain date be required to have these invaluable assets.

An argument could be made that heated mirrors are NOT essential...but neither are pneumatic tools...used to be done by hand. Or how about that fancy air operated floor jack...you don't really need it. Why do you need tire changers...when I started we did tire changes with "spoons." Ohm meters...continuity testers...and those nifty pigtail testers...you don't really need them.

But they make life a HELLUVA lot easier.

Sometimes people need to think before they act..

Rat
Rat, I have been critical of you many times when you post here even after leaving Conway, yet your reply was great in this case.
 
One of our trucks was down at a Pilot this morning. During that road call I did a quick sample as I drove though the lot. I counted 35 trucks that had heated mirrors and 11 that did not. Of the 35, I cannot say if they all worked, but I'll assume that they all did. The ones that did not were basic old school west coast mirrors (no wire = no heat). The ones that did either had wires or were newer aerodynamic mirrors (which are heated). That surprised me, because I had a wild guess that about 10% of trucks on the road did not have mirror heat, but that # is closer to 25% in that case. Here in PA too, where we get a lot of snow, ice and rain. Now the thing that confuses me is, I had to go in to see if they had a filter, while I was waiting, I was looking at the mirrors. They actually sold non-heated west coast mirrors in PA. Not only did they sell them, they had 4 of them and only 2 headed mirrors (with no empty space for 2 more). If 75% of the trucks there had heated mirrors, I'd epect the opposite, 4 heated, 2 not heated. Why would that be? As far as breakage, neither has an advantage. So it's natural to assume that adding the fact that heated mirrors can also fail electrically (where the others cannot), heated mirrors have more failures. The only logical reason to stock more less popular mirrors is because some drivers replace a broken heated mirror with a cheaper non-heated unit. I would expect that down south, but not at a Pilot in northern PA.

While I was in there, I seen heated spot mirrors, which brings up another question, why doesn't anyone care about heated spot mirrors? Would anyone argue the importance of spot mirrors? It's safer to have them heated, so in the name of safety they should be necessary in everyone's eyes here, but I know for a fact that most Con-way trucks do not have them, but no one has mentioned it yet. They are obviously not necessary, but why is that? I'll admit that I do not have the driving experience as most of you guys, but I do used the spot mirrors when I do drive.

Lets try an unrealistic scenery. There are only a few companies that supply 12v heating elements for mirrors. It is possible that the largest can go out of business or have a fire that destroys the factory. Until other companies retool and hire to pick up the demand, there would be a shortage. Existing inventory would dry up quick and remaining companies will do everythign they can to please the largest customers, which is truck manufactures. Heated mirrors can be on back order for months or even a year before they're all aught up. The shortage has driven cost to over $150 each and you still have to wait weeks or months to get one. How many trucking companies would shut their doors because the cannot maintain their heated mirrors? How many drivers would quit their jobs in the name of safety? I'd say not many, I think that drivers would understand the problem and deal with it for a while. The alternative is finding another job, or changing careers. We all have bills to pay.

A truly believe that trucking is the backbone of our economy, and I do not believe that it's existence hinges on whether or not trucks have heated mirrors.
 
I disagree, ANY advantage to safety is not necessary. If it were then we should all stop driving in the rain and snow altogether because it's not as safe as dry roads? I can list a lot of ridiculous things that will have more downsides than good, even though they would save lives on our roads. It all about compromise. You do not like lane departure warnings or impact avoidance devices, but CW was convinced that it would reduce accidents, so according to you, they are necessary. Do you like wearing a seat belt on a forklift? If it's safer, just do it.

I don't understand what you mean by "Why can't we force the few things we do? If it means why can't you have heated mirrors? I never said that you couldn't have them. What I said is that the job could still get done without them, so they are not absolutely needed. Some people here are acting like if they were driving in freezing rain and the heated mirrors stopped working, all is lost, it is impossible to drive to the truck any further. I repaired heated mirrors many times in my 9 years at CW and I never heard of a road call for them. Not all of them stopped working as they entered the shop, they were driven to the shop that way. It was never an issue to fix them, I just find it funny how you guys can say they are a necessity, yet most of you have done the job without them.

ABS is a very important safety feature (more than mirror heat) and it effectiveness is proven, but a lot of drivers ignore or put tape over that warning light and keep right on going. When I was at CW, more drivers ignored it than wrote it up and brought it to a shop. We didn't know it until the truck came for PM and see codes logged starting weeks earlier. Is ABS necessary? Obviously not, but it is a lot safer. If I had to choose between ABS or Heated mirrors, I'd chose ABS. Another driver without heated mirrors might cut me off and I'd have to brake hard. How many of you have been in a skid on slippery roads with and without ABS? There is a big difference in control. On the other hand, almost every driver at CW wrote up when the heated mirrors didn't work. I recall a few times where a driver brought in a trucks for so called safety issues (A/C not working, heated mirrors, shifter boot leaking, etc), but got pissed when the truck was not done in time because we had to fix the ABS light that was on also. One guy even told me that he didn't care about that. My reply was, it's not illegal to run with cold air blowing in a torn boot, it is illegal to run without ABS. Don't pull the safety card with fumes in cab, then knowing drive a truck with a known DOT violation. If you're going to cry safety, go all in, don't be selective. I think the issue is that poor visibly slows you down, fumes, cold air or no A/C is uncomfortable, but an ABS light doesn't affect the driver much, so they don't care as much, but they should.

I wont comment on the horse & buggy, that's already been gone over and isn't any less ridiculous now. I haven't read anything so far that has changed my mind. IMO, if you cannot drive a truck in the winter without heated mirrors, you're not a good driver. I agree that they are a time saver, and are safer, but not mandatory, necessary, essential, or any other word that means the same thing.

I respect your opinion but I don't think you feel it's necessary because your job doesn't depend on whether you crash or not.
 
I respect your opinion but I don't think you feel it's necessary because your job doesn't depend on whether you crash or not.

My opinion is not based on my feelings, it's based on the facts I see, namely all the trucks out there that don't have them. I understand and respect everyone points, ignoring the irrelevant ones. However, I still see people holding to the we NEED the safest things. Just because something is safer, it does not mean that other options are unsafe. The only reason we have heated mirrors is because the benefits outweigh the cost, period. Heated spot mirrors are safer, and you only have them on your newest trucks, so why aren't the older trucks retrofitted? Or even upgraded as they fail? Apparently heated west coast mirrors are safe enough and $5.00 extra per mirror is too much. Anything to make the trucks safer is not necessary. I'f I needed spot mirrors, I'd choose the $20 heated ones over the $15 non-heated ones, because it makes sense to me. If they were $100 each, I wouldn't.
 
Heated spot mirrors are safer, and you only have them on your newest trucks, so why aren't the older trucks retrofitted? Or even upgraded as they fail? Apparently heated west coast mirrors are safe enough and $5.00 extra per mirror is too much.

BINGO! In my opinion, the only reason we have them on the Cascadias is because the trucks are leased, and Con-Way has guaranteed a residual value.

Don't forget, safety is our number 1 value (if it doesn't cost anything).
 
My opinion is not based on my feelings, it's based on the facts I see, namely all the trucks out there that don't have them. I understand and respect everyone points, ignoring the irrelevant ones. However, I still see people holding to the we NEED the safest things. Just because something is safer, it does not mean that other options are unsafe. The only reason we have heated mirrors is because the benefits outweigh the cost, period. Heated spot mirrors are safer, and you only have them on your newest trucks, so why aren't the older trucks retrofitted? Or even upgraded as they fail? Apparently heated west coast mirrors are safe enough and $5.00 extra per mirror is too much. Anything to make the trucks safer is not necessary. I'f I needed spot mirrors, I'd choose the $20 heated ones over the $15 non-heated ones, because it makes sense to me. If they were $100 each, I wouldn't.

Like you said. They are safer. Maybe the old way isn't unsafe. We have all drive plenty of miles the old way. Got throught it alright. Never wore a helmet on a bike when I was growing up either. Send your kid out without one now and you'll get child endangerment. The times are different. The laws are different.

We don't want systems where the truck " takes over " like the accident avoidance that comes on everytime you pass a construction sign or locks them up when you get cut off. But they have been determined to be safer. Heated wiper blades are safer. They keep me from looking through a little hole of what is left of my windshield. Would it force me off the road not to have them? Of course not. We are gonna keep trucking until the wheels come off.

Or is that what you want ? A bunch of sissy drivers pulling over and calling the shop to run out and patch up their leaking blinker fluid?

Anything to make the trucks safer is necessary. Things ain't even gotten bad for this industry yet. Just wait. It's coming. Round one is this summer. It's going to be a nightmare. The governement has gotten involved. When has that ever worked out ?
 
. Anything to make the trucks safer is not necessary.

Tell me that when a truck kills or injures one of your family members because he/she could not see out of their mirrors...I would also like to see you present this statement in front of DOT and the FMCSA...I think you need to stick to turning wrenches and not worry if we have a heated mirror or not....obviously you have never been in our seat..you turn wrenches and well turn the wheel....you dont see any drivers on here telling you what tools you do and dont need to do your job,Dont tell us what we do and dont to do ours.....
 
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