ABF | 401(k)'s as a retirement vehicle

I realize that PEX is far superior to
Polybutylene, but the Shell Oil debacle kept me busy for almost three years, preparing tracts of homes to be replumbed. As a result, copper throughout my home, water softener included. Living in a mild climate adds to my confidence level.

I regularly shore up any leaks in my 401k. :17142:

I too remember the Shell oil problem, also remember Aluminum wired home problems.
Cost of labor and materials has set copper on the back burner down here.
Most all spec homes are using PEX.
I gave up on my leaks in ENRON, LU, ORIG, LINN, think I just found one in TRVN.
Like I've said in the past, started out with nothing, I still have most left.
At least I didn't have YRCW, like my friend had.
 
True, canary. Pension and SS benefits are protected and strictly off limits to creditors. Are 401k’s protected? I personally don’t know...thought you might.

As the Brother above stated,....as long as you keep your investments in a vehicle designated as "Retirement", your nest-egg is relatively safe....(..minus IRS problems incurred with "other money"..).....

However...........Once the money is moved into an account designated as "income", you are now subject to the appropriate tax provisions. The appeal of tax-deferred defined-contribution "investment" schemes were that your eventual tax bill could be deferred until your age,..and maybe physical condition....would greatly reduce your tax burden. You will still "pay the piper".....albeit not as much as when you originally earned the money.....

There has been legislation to prevent your evading end-of-life creditors by placing your "nest-egg" with spouses and children. There also is a 7 year period prior to the end of your life which you can not "gift" your inheritors with property, to evade any tax liability.
If you have a spouse you want to continue to support after your death,....you must be very careful in setting up a trust of some sort,...usually involving an annuity payment,.......to prevent your creditors from crowding ahead of her in the event of your death.

Just taking out a lump-sum every year out of a grand total in your 401(K) will subject you to income taxes.......
As Bro. Elwood said,.......Constant tweaking...and vigilance....is the price of having a successful defined-contribution funded retirement.

It can be done,..........But it takes far,far more commitment than a defined-benefit funded pension. And,.....terrible mistakes can be made that are ....irrevocable.
As the paperwork constantly states when you sign up for a defined-contribution investment plan......'There are NO guarantees.....And , Let the Buyer Beware...".
 
The truth be, that I trust no one to manage my money. Social Security is not managed it is pilfered and *****. I have not had any course in economics, but I have read much about the aspects of stocks and bonds that are most significant to me.

If one is able to prepare one’s own taxes and balance one’s own checking account, while also putting money away in savings, the extra step of retirement investment is the next logical. Taking control of that money is liberating.

Ipsa scientia potestas est, carpe diem!


A great philosophy.......Education is the best defense of your nest-egg.

But,.....as a practicing Paranoid,........I postulate that the people in the "Money" industry also know those facts,....and are working daily to ....skew....the information the average investor relies on to make his..."informed"...decisions concerning his money.

They've got to be reasonably careful,........If everyone was constantly losing in the "investment" game,....it would be evident the game was rigged....

So,....I think there are certain market "fluctuations"....that are deliberately created. This allows Wall Street to siphon off a certain amount of the so-called profits the average investor thinks he has,....without raising too many eyebrows.
Some of these "fluctuations" may be demographically-driven........If you can get people to defer their retirement a year or two...(..or three..)....this helps alleviate a tight Labor market, and reduces wages and new-hires
It is axiomatic that the larger the Labor pool,...the lower the wages.
 
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As the paperwork constantly states when you sign up for a defined-contribution investment plan......'There are NO guarantees.....And , Let the Buyer Beware...".

My paranoid friend, there are no guarantees with defined benefit pension plans either as many in our own industry are finding out these days. Your belief that somehow pensions are "sacred" is a totally misguided one. Any "promise" can be broken.

"The pensions crisis or pensions timebomb is the predicted difficulty in paying for corporate or government employment retirement pensions in various countries, due to a difference between pension obligations and the resources set aside to fund them. Shifting demographics are causing a lower ratio of workers per retiree; contributing factors include retirees living longer (increasing the relative number of retirees), and lower birth rates (decreasing the relative number of workers, especially relative to the Post-WW2 Baby Boom). There is significant debate regarding the magnitude and importance of the problem, as well as the solutions.

For example, as of 2008, the estimates for the underfunding of the United States state pension programs ranged from $1 trillion using a discount rate of 8% to $3.23 trillion using U.S. Treasury bond yields as the discount rate.[2][3] The present value of unfunded obligations under Social Security as of August 2010 was approximately $5.4 trillion. In other words, this amount would have to be set aside today so that the principal and interest would cover the program's shortfall between tax revenues and payouts over the next 75 years"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_crisis
 
I recently left my employer of 15 years that contributed to CSPF and was hired by a company that contributes $200 a week into a “Money Purchase Plan”. It’s a risky move I feel but I’m 42 years old and felt I needed to try to make up for any and all losses from CSPF
 
I recently left my employer of 15 years that contributed to CSPF and was hired by a company that contributes $200 a week into a “Money Purchase Plan”. It’s a risky move I feel but I’m 42 years old and felt I needed to try to make up for any and all losses from CSPF
That’s exactly what I need to do.
 
I recently left my employer of 15 years that contributed to CSPF and was hired by a company that contributes $200 a week into a “Money Purchase Plan”. It’s a risky move I feel but I’m 42 years old and felt I needed to try to make up for any and all losses from CSPF

That’s exactly what I need to do.

Both of you would be well-advised to file for a Form 5500 from the plan administrator. If there are no trustees associated with that plan, the Form 5500 is your last line of defense to assure yourself that the plan is being run responsibly, and with fiduciary care......

The "Money Purchase Plan" sounds like some sort of a defined-benefit plan,.....and I hope it works for you. I'm concerned with retirement security,....not just for Union pension plans,...but for ALL retirees.

Education about your plan is the best defense, Brother. You can find out more about Form 5500 from the ERISA Act of 1974.
Really,......EVERYONE in either a defined-benefit, or a defined-contribution plan should oversee their company-sponsored plan.....Never take their word that "everything's O.K."....
 
Both of you would be well-advised to file for a Form 5500 from the plan administrator. If there are no trustees associated with that plan, the Form 5500 is your last line of defense to assure yourself that the plan is being run responsibly, and with fiduciary care......

The "Money Purchase Plan" sounds like some sort of a defined-benefit plan,.....and I hope it works for you. I'm concerned with retirement security,....not just for Union pension plans,...but for ALL retirees.

Education about your plan is the best defense, Brother. You can find out more about Form 5500 from the ERISA Act of 1974.
Really,......EVERYONE in either a defined-benefit, or a defined-contribution plan should oversee their company-sponsored plan.....Never take their word that "everything's O.K."....
The money purchase plan sounds like the retirement plan we have at NEMF. It's a conservative investment plan that is fully funded by the company. It's been described to me by those that have been in the plan for awhile as an annuity.
 
My paranoid friend, there are no guarantees with defined benefit pension plans either as many in our own industry are finding out these days. Your belief that somehow pensions are "sacred" is a totally misguided one. Any "promise" can be broken.

"The pensions crisis or pensions timebomb is the predicted difficulty in paying for corporate or government employment retirement pensions in various countries, due to a difference between pension obligations and the resources set aside to fund them. Shifting demographics are causing a lower ratio of workers per retiree; contributing factors include retirees living longer (increasing the relative number of retirees), and lower birth rates (decreasing the relative number of workers, especially relative to the Post-WW2 Baby Boom). There is significant debate regarding the magnitude and importance of the problem, as well as the solutions.

For example, as of 2008, the estimates for the underfunding of the United States state pension programs ranged from $1 trillion using a discount rate of 8% to $3.23 trillion using U.S. Treasury bond yields as the discount rate.[2][3] The present value of unfunded obligations under Social Security as of August 2010 was approximately $5.4 trillion. In other words, this amount would have to be set aside today so that the principal and interest would cover the program's shortfall between tax revenues and payouts over the next 75 years"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_crisis

Ahh,.....but there WAS a guarantee for defined-benefit plans.....at one time. Over the years, various forces have de-constructed and underfunded the regulatory safeguards that were legislatively put into place,...to INSURE a guarantee.

And,....Why did they do that?

Part of the point is just what Wikipedia says....."Shifting demographics"......Many business groups realize control of the Labor pool is directly connected to how, and when,....and whose choice,......allows a "Laborer"..to exit the employment pool. That would be retirement, in it's many forms.

Since,.....at ONE time,....there was a GUARANTEED, SAFE style of pension, that the Employee had control over, as far as his exit date,.........to whose advantage was it to de-fund and de-construct this....guarantee....out of existence?

The.....ONLY "Alternative", being offered by companies in lieu of the.....manufactured failure of defined-benefit plans,....is the ERISA language that allows defined-contribution plans...(..originally conceived as a backup to traditional plans.....the "third leg" of the retirement "chair"....the other two "legs" being Social Security, and a defined-benefit plan..)..
401(k)'s were not originally conceived to be the "stand-alone" retirement vehicle. This is stated in the ERISA Act.

And,.....The biggest point:......There Are NO Guarantees with defined-contribution plans........Stated in the paperwork,....and every fiduciary you talk to will say the same......Let The Buyer Beware.....

I think it's a shame that a safe,...and once reliable,...way of retirement,...with safeguards like Government-backed Pension Benefit Guarantee Insurance..(..now distinctly underfunded,..by partisan Government fiat..)..
...is replaced by a Wall Street-sponsored Wheel Of Fortune......Take your Chances.....

And,....speaking of Demographics........how is it...in times of massive Labor shortages, especially in trucking,.....that there is a.....shrinking pool of participants in defined-benefit plans? By all economic rights,...there should be a flood of long-term new-hires pumping new "blood" into these Plans....
Instead,....we have company propaganda convincing employees to....vote themselves out of "failing" plans,..and sign up for the company scheme.
Of course the Plan is failing,....NOW that you've removed several thousand participants.....and FUTURE new-hire participants.....

This discussion about the safety, reliability and dependability of defined-benefit plans vs. defined-contribution plans wouldn't even have taken place...............15 years ago. Hands-down defined-benefit........

So,........In whose "best interests" have the rules and safeguards for defined-benefit plans been altered, de-funded, and wrecked? The Employee? I think not.......
 
The money purchase plan sounds like the retirement plan we have at NEMF. It's a conservative investment plan that is fully funded by the company. It's been described to me by those that have been in the plan for awhile as an annuity.

And,....I believe that was negotiated for you as a group plan,....with no one individual employee taking a ...."financial" hit, because of a mistake in investment choices. The ....risk, as it were,....is spread throughout the entire pool of participants.

And,.....Once again, Brother........You can file a Form 5500 also. It's a company-sponsored plan........I'd get a few guys together to pay an independent accountant, once you receive the Form 5500,.....to just "check" it over.....just for your own peace of mind.
....(......And....filing for the Form 5500 also tips off the company that SOME of their employees are taking advantage of the LAW,..to look over their shoulder, so to speak...).....(....kind of warns them to stay on the straight path..)...

The ERISA Act of 1974 allows any participant in a company-sponsored retirement...(...OR HEALTH CARE..)...Plan,...to request the latest income tax filing for that Plan. Ask for all notes and attachments,....and send them about $10.00 for mailing,...because you're gong to get a 3-inch thick pile of papers,....with ALL of their financial dealings......Who their investment firms are....What their investments are....How much they spent for paperclips and office supplies....AND Junkets, trips, and "fact-finding" vacations at Plan expense........Salaries for ALL employees of the Plan administrators.....

Very interesting.....if exhaustive....reading. And,......Any competent accountant can warn you if there are certain "red flags" in the operation of the Plan. Worth a few bucks.......

The company will be fined $100.00 a day for any day they do not respond to your request...upon receipt....for Form 5500. This is according to ERISA law. Money paid directly to the requester....you...

There was a group of us here in W. Penna. that requested Form 5500 from our pension plan for about 10 years....The Trustees were well aware we were looking over their shoulder....As was our right...
After a number of retirements,..the group just kind of fell apart.....

BUT! We feel we kept 'em honest........
 
And,....I believe that was negotiated for you as a group plan,....with no one individual employee taking a ...."financial" hit, because of a mistake in investment choices. The ....risk, as it were,....is spread throughout the entire pool of participants.

And,.....Once again, Brother........You can file a Form 5500 also. It's a company-sponsored plan........I'd get a few guys together to pay an independent accountant, once you receive the Form 5500,.....to just "check" it over.....just for your own peace of mind.
....(......And....filing for the Form 5500 also tips off the company that SOME of their employees are taking advantage of the LAW,..to look over their shoulder, so to speak...).....(....kind of warns them to stay on the straight path..)...

The ERISA Act of 1974 allows any participant in a company-sponsored retirement...(...OR HEALTH CARE..)...Plan,...to request the latest income tax filing for that Plan. Ask for all notes and attachments,....and send them about $10.00 for mailing,...because you're gong to get a 3-inch thick pile of papers,....with ALL of their financial dealings......Who their investment firms are....What their investments are....How much they spent for paperclips and office supplies....AND Junkets, trips, and "fact-finding" vacations at Plan expense........Salaries for ALL employees of the Plan administrators.....

Very interesting.....if exhaustive....reading. And,......Any competent accountant can warn you if there are certain "red flags" in the operation of the Plan. Worth a few bucks.......

The company will be fined $100.00 a day for any day they do not respond to your request...upon receipt....for Form 5500. This is according to ERISA law. Money paid directly to the requester....you...

There was a group of us here in W. Penna. that requested Form 5500 from our pension plan for about 10 years....The Trustees were well aware we were looking over their shoulder....As was our right...
After a number of retirements,..the group just kind of fell apart.....

BUT! We feel we kept 'em honest........

So if you're willing and able to research and inform yourself about the above, why not do the same for investments in your control and care? Not all finial advisors are crooks and you can even adjust the level of precipitation in your own investments to what's comfortable to you. It's really not that hard and it can make a big difference for you even in your situation. It's never too late to start.
 
So if you're willing and able to research and inform yourself about the above, why not do the same for investments in your control and care? Not all finial advisors are crooks and you can even adjust the level of precipitation in your own investments to what's comfortable to you. It's really not that hard and it can make a big difference for you even in your situation. It's never too late to start.


Well,....as I said from above, you're only receiving the information from the Form 5500. It would be up to you to find an accountant with the appropriate fiduciary forensic skills,...(..and a disinterest in the unbiased results..)...to dissect the information in the Form 5500. A layperson couldn't make an informed judgement about all the financial stuff.....
.......And, that's my point about dealings with stocks, bonds, 401(K) investments, and such,........A layperson not extensively schooled in economics in general, and bond trading in particular.......has no clue what he's being offered in the various prospectus issued by the Fund managers......who are, by the way, far away from being unbiased and disinterested in getting you to invest your money with them.......

You're right,....Not all financial managers are crooks......You can tell the honest ones from the crooks by the big, giant billboards over their offices that say: "I Am Not A Crook"..........
I'm being facetious.......Seriously, though......where do you find a financial advisor who is disinterested in...WHERE you spend your money? They are all Salespeople FIRST.....for their own agencies,.......and "Advisors", second.......Pretty much anything they'll do for you has a fee attached...
....And , their financial "product" is the best,...while their competitor's are all "dogs".........

In My Opinion,......The financial market operates at a level far above what we,...as laypersons,.....can access through casual training and part-time education. And,...I think that's by design.
In My Opinion,......98% of the Financial market choices and decisions done by us laypersons,......are by pure gut instinct...or hunches and hints.......
In My Opinion,........You'd have to take a full-time degree in Economics and Business Investing,...spending at least 8 years for a Master's Degree,.....to even begin to understand how to properly invest your money safely,..without the use of hunches and hints...

And,......That leaves out all of us truck drivers, steel workers, clerks, carpenters , electricians, office workers,......and any other in occupations other than banking,....as we're devoting just about all of our time keeping Body and Soul together.....

Thus,....we rely on Hunches, Hints, and Pure Gut Instinct,......to our financial detriment,.....and the enrichment of those who DO know all the rules.....

Heckuva way to "finance" a SAFE retirement........

I'll agree with you,...It's never too late to start educating yourself,....it may be too late for your financial well-being,...as you should've started your education right out of High School, in College,.......if you wanted to compete with the other Financial Big Boys......

But,...In My Opinion,.......I think the financial stock and bond banking world,......is very, very comfortable with us Hoi Polloi lacking enough education to make an informed decision.....

Job Security for them.......
 
Well,....as I said from above, you're only receiving the information from the Form 5500. It would be up to you to find an accountant with the appropriate fiduciary forensic skills,...(..and a disinterest in the unbiased results..)...to dissect the information in the Form 5500. A layperson couldn't make an informed judgement about all the financial stuff.....
.......And, that's my point about dealings with stocks, bonds, 401(K) investments, and such,........A layperson not extensively schooled in economics in general, and bond trading in particular.......has no clue what he's being offered in the various prospectus issued by the Fund managers......who are, by the way, far away from being unbiased and disinterested in getting you to invest your money with them.......

You're right,....Not all financial managers are crooks......You can tell the honest ones from the crooks by the big, giant billboards over their offices that say: "I Am Not A Crook"..........
I'm being facetious.......Seriously, though......where do you find a financial advisor who is disinterested in...WHERE you spend your money? They are all Salespeople FIRST.....for their own agencies,.......and "Advisors", second.......Pretty much anything they'll do for you has a fee attached...
....And , their financial "product" is the best,...while their competitor's are all "dogs".........

In My Opinion,......The financial market operates at a level far above what we,...as laypersons,.....can access through casual training and part-time education. And,...I think that's by design.
In My Opinion,......98% of the Financial market choices and decisions done by us laypersons,......are by pure gut instinct...or hunches and hints.......
In My Opinion,........You'd have to take a full-time degree in Economics and Business Investing,...spending at least 8 years for a Master's Degree,.....to even begin to understand how to properly invest your money safely,..without the use of hunches and hints...

And,......That leaves out all of us truck drivers, steel workers, clerks, carpenters , electricians, office workers,......and any other in occupations other than banking,....as we're devoting just about all of our time keeping Body and Soul together.....

Thus,....we rely on Hunches, Hints, and Pure Gut Instinct,......to our financial detriment,.....and the enrichment of those who DO know all the rules.....

Heckuva way to "finance" a SAFE retirement........

I'll agree with you,...It's never too late to start educating yourself,....it may be too late for your financial well-being,...as you should've started your education right out of High School, in College,.......if you wanted to compete with the other Financial Big Boys......

But,...In My Opinion,.......I think the financial stock and bond banking world,......is very, very comfortable with us Hoi Polloi lacking enough education to make an informed decision.....

Job Security for them.......

Millions of people have been able to manage their money successfully using 401Ks. If you don't THINK you can, you're probably right. Best of luck.
 
Millions of people have been able to manage their money successfully using 401Ks. If you don't THINK you can, you're probably right. Best of luck.
Until the next Depression ‘manages’ it for them. They’re the ones who are going to need, truly, the best of luck.
 
Been doing that my self since 1998. I retired on those savings in February. There were a few downturns since then.

Now,....I can say that some of the smartest people I've found,..have been in trucking, or other industries more associated with physical labor, rather than mental labor.
You've done well with your investments, and that's good. You are the rarity out there who has taken the time to actually understand financial dealings..

But,.....I am postulating that the average person is being.......deliberately herded into defined-contribution..."cattle pens".....with nowhere near the information you have.....
"Deliberately".........as in cattle to be financially slaughtered, when and where the "slaughtering" behooves the financial market and Big Business demographics...

The wrecking of defined-benefit pensions,.......which required no financial acumen out of their participants, and had many regulatory safeguards to prevent individual catastrophic choices by spreading the risk throughout the entire pool of participants........is, In My Opinion,.....deliberate and unconscienable....

I would imagine you've properly protected your nest-egg,....but we're playing out,....in real time right now,......a financial downturn in the stock market now. All the Dow-Jones gains have been wiped out for the year, according to the news yesterday.....

Anyone else out there with a 401(K) notice a distinct drop in the value of their portfolio in the last few days? I'm not involved in any defined-contribution scheme, or own any stocks, so I wouldn't personally know. I'm curious, though,...if anyone else has had their value in their portfolio drop?

And,....I appreciate your insight, and actually do agree with you as to whether people who enter the financial arena should "arm" themselves with as much information as they can.
I am decrying the wreckage of defined-benefit funds,..in which a certain amount of fiduciary trust protected the average worker,....and the power of the group prevented...... individual.......malfeasance as regards their retirement security....
 
Until the next Depression ‘manages’ it for them. They’re the ones who are going to need, truly, the best of luck.

We,.....ahh......might be seeing the first inklings of something disastrous in the financial markets now.
And I don't want to wish that on anyone......It will affect ALL types of pensions and social programs.....
 
We,.....ahh......might be seeing the first inklings of something disastrous in the financial markets now.
And I don't want to wish that on anyone......It will affect ALL types of pensions and social programs.....
Like you, canary, I don’t wish that on anyone either. I’m just flabbergasted at the amount of people who think the 401k is the best thing out there. I see now the stock market has erased all gains in 2018 with this latest ‘correction’. I have a 401k that I haven’t put ONE CENT of my own money into, as the ‘funds’ have come from profit-sharing cashouts from some old previous employers...basically, play money for me. I’ve watched it soar, and I’ve watched it crash and burn. BOTH fluctuations following almost to the letter how the stock market is performing. It’s almost funny how predictable it is! And yet, there’s that ‘pesky’ Pension benefit of mine that just keeps on paying. Hmmmmmm.....
 
I don't pretend to be fiscally astute........Many of my Brothers on here know much more than I do as far as investing, stocks and bonds.....

And that would be the main reason I liked defined-benefit pensions.....Up until 2014 and the passage of the MPRA,...I didn't have to put much thought into the stock market, or the investments carried by the Pension fund.......Retirement for "Dummies"..me included....

And I realize the biggest selling point of individual defined-contribution funds,...is the ability to do so much better than a regular pension fund....IF you're willing to stomach a varying amount of risk.....

But I think,...over the years,....the "selling point" doesn't live up to the hype....in the real world. In my experience, the money I put into a 401(k) over the 20 years I was involved with ABF's fund,.....I think I broke even.
In other words,....the fluctuations of the market erased any substantial gains I would've made. I saved a lot, ..but I didn't make much more than a bank savings account,....and not too much less if I would've stuffed my mattress....
Of Course, ABF contributed nothing,......that would probably be the difference with companies who match funds whose employees do reasonably well with their 401(k)'s.......

I worry about people being stampeded into defined-contribution pensions as their only recourse other than Social Security......
And,....I worry that the money people in this country are...."manufacturing"....the stampede.....

What's wrong with a pension that requires no action from the employee other than participation and years of service?
 
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