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ABF | Butch Lewis Act

......Oh,....and Teamster "fat-cats" getting multiple pensions is disgusting......Yep,....we'll all agree on that...

Just as disgusting as hedge fund managers collecting multiple salaries from fees charged to your 401(k)'s for being an "advisor"........sometimes on competing hedge funds........
 
But don't you think we should also take some responsibility for this complete and utter screwup? We, the employees, have known this slow motion train wreck (MEPF) was coming at us for over 20 years. And what have we done to prevent or mitigate the damages? We blame everyone else but we knew it was coming; the pension fund trustees have been telling us for years. Are we blameless?
 
What alternative did we have? What alternative did the Trustees have? If I have my dates right, Local #776 out of Carlisle ,Pa. about 20 years ago, switched to a defined-contribution fund,.....trustees voted for it, because actuaries said as long as they can achieve an 8% return every year,.......everyone will receive a million dollars upon 30 years' service...So they took the companies' negotiated contribution and paid it to the 401(k) fund.....Fidelity, I think,...but I'm not sure......Help me out here, Carlisle guys.......

They hit their goal of 8% the first year,.......then 6%,...then 2% ...then -2%....

After 10 years, they switched back to a defined-benefit plan.

When you get 20 years into a plan,.........you're pretty much committed,....
And,.....20 years ago, PBGI was funded properly,...because there was less than 2% of MEPFs that were in trouble. If you remember properly,....it was the SINGLE Employer pension funds they gave "relief" to in 2003,...after the ENRON debacle......

MEPFs were reasonably fine,...up until about 2006,........and the recession of 2008 just put the boot in.

Sure,.....I'll take "responsibility"..........working people always do.....
 
I believe you but something somewhere does not ring true. Getting an 8% rate of return (ror) year over year (yoy) for 30 years is not unreasonably. Also, 20 years ago a CD was somewhere around 8% (I bought a 2 year $30,000 CD in 2000 for 7.5% at first national bank within my Martin Brower 401k). We did hit a small bump in 1999 (tech bubble) but that bounced back in less than a year.

But if your retirement money was in a 401k, then you could watch your account and have a say in how it is managed. If your account is only averaging 2% yoy, then you could have taken your statement to a financial planner, your bank, any college that studies financial (talk with a professor and have a class study done on it) etc. But with a MEPF we have no way to accept responsibility. And that is where we did nothing; we gave responsibility to others (we treated it like a dental visit, we closed our eyes and said don't explain it just fix it).
 
Canary, I'm wondering about our pension and what it is invested in. Over the years you have strongly suggested that wall street doesn't like MEPF's because these funds invest in companies that support social programs and MEPF's use their money to advance social engineering. Did I remember you posting something along those lines? I'm not trying to put you on the spot; I'm wondering if that might be why your rate of return dropped from 8% to 6% to 2% for 2 years?
I'm not against social engineering or supporting companies that support social programs but usually these companies offer lower rates of return. These companies are more interested in helping society than helping investors.
 
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Homesick said:
Canary, I'm wondering about our pension and what it is invested in. Over the years you have strongly suggested that wall street doesn't like MEPF's because these funds invest in companies that support social programs and MEPF's use their money to advance social engineering. Did I remember you posting something along those lines? I'm not trying to put you on the spot; I'm wondering if that might be why your rate of return dropped from 8% to 6% to 2% for 2 years?
I'm not against social engineering or supporting companies that support social programs but usually these companies offer lower rates of return. These companies are more interested in helping society than helping investors.
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Your always the weak link willing to give up all we at ABF won long ago. You love giving back. First to the company and now to the government that screwed us in the first place.
 
Homesick said:
Canary, I'm wondering about our pension and what it is invested in. Over the years you have strongly suggested that wall street doesn't like MEPF's because these funds invest in companies that support social programs and MEPF's use their money to advance social engineering. Did I remember you posting something along those lines? I'm not trying to put you on the spot; I'm wondering if that might be why your rate of return dropped from 8% to 6% to 2% for 2 years?
I'm not against social engineering or supporting companies that support social programs but usually these companies offer lower rates of return. These companies are more interested in helping society than helping investors.
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First,....Thank you for sharing some private information to illustrate your points. Many people won't do that....but your experience in investing provides a clearer picture than just saying something is...so. I appreciate it.

I was not involved with Central Penna.'s pension fund,....however I was steward for a former Carolina guy who had transferred from Carlisle to our terminal,........and had his pension portioned between both a defined-benefit, and a defined-contribution fund. Somewhere around here I have a few papers relating to this.
I was asking any Carlisle guys who were actually involved with that fund to provide a little more insight.

For about 8 years, I was involved in a Pension Improvement committee here in W. Penna. We requested the fund's Form 5500 every year, and pooled our money to pay an independent forensic auditor to look at those documents every year.

We were a little "thorn in the side" of our fund because as a group, we had asked some embarrassing questions,........but overall,.....the upshot was that our fund was run fiscally responsibly,....even before the formation of our group. They were doing the best they could, with the several investment firms they were dealing with.
Basically,....with a few peccadilloes.......they ran our fund honestly......

Your last sentence, though,.......belies the problem. How committed to...social change,.....can you be,...if you're willing to forgo social change for a.....higher rate of return?
That is Economic Darwinism distilled to a fine point,..........and the Great Lesson Wall Street is trying to teach us all:

"Nothing is important unless there's a Dollar Value attached to it."

I have a problem with that,....because intangibles, like Honor, Dignity, Patriotism, and Family Values are all rather hard to ...quantify into ..."dollar values".
......and therefore the Money Community disparages those plebeian values,....laughs at them,...as things you provide to the "rubes" that have no monetary value,...but can be twisted in order to...wring more money,...out of working people.

Mark Twain(Samuel Clemens)...was fond of illustrating that point by saying many times that; "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".........not meaning patriotism is bad,......but that scoundrels are the first ones to proclaim loudly how..."Patriotic" they are,..when they can see a buck in it.

Social engineering is about holding people to high standards......IN SPITE of how ..."unprofitable"...it may be. Many Union funds were contemplating selling their large blocks of Wal-Mart stock when Wal-Mart went public with their anti-Union campaign against their employees trying to organize. ........And Teamster funds were considering dumping their Union-Pacific stock....the parent company of Overnite Transport,......while the Teamsters were trying to organize them....

Both actions drove Wall Street into a dizzy,......because they were....UNPROFITABLE!.........NOT because they were MORALLY INTANGIBLE by holding stock in a company that was actively fighting against you and your moral philosophy.

See the difference? I've always said that the only "stock-in-trade" that any Union owns....is it's MORAL leadership. Once a Union loses that,....or trades it for profit and money,......that Union has lost it's MORAL AUTHORITY to lead it's own members..

"Government of the People, by the People"....not by the Profit and Loss Column of Big Business,...dribbling crumbs at their whim to the working schlubs way,way down at the bottom of the economic food chain.
Business should exist to ...serve. Not rule.....

This is why Wall Street (et al.) doesn't care if you have your tiny pile in your personal portfolio........and they DO desperately care that a Large Organization,....like a Labor Union,.....with a VERY LARGE market presence,......based on their hundreds of thousands of members...
MIGHT make a money decision.....based on...MORALS! Oh! The Horror!

The Money People....(...the ones that gave us terms like "junk bonds"...and "trophy wife"...and "pyramid scheme"..) have an abhorrent view of Morals,......and want the rest of us to consider every aspect of OUR lives the same as they do......
In terms of Dollars and Cents.....Profit and Loss.....

That's why they hate Unions. Companies exist to make Profits,...and that's fine.......Unions exist to remind them of the HUMAN COST of what it takes to make those profits,...and to FAIRLY distribute those Profits,....and put FAMILY VALUES before Profits.....

Can you see where Wall Street(et al.) has a problem with .....any...organization of working people?
 
SAC75 said:
Your always the weak link willing to give up all we at ABF won long ago. You love giving back. First to the company and now to the government that screwed us in the first place.
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Says the person who never accepts responsibility for any of their decisions. With you it is always someone else fault. You buy a car that you cannot afford, it is the finance company and the auto dealers fault. Run up credit card debt, then the credit card company should not have approved you for that much credit. The company you work for puts money in your retirement account, then it is their responsibility to monitor and maintain it. Not your responsibility. Your the victim.
 
canaryinthemine said:
First,....Thank you for sharing some private information to illustrate your points. Many people won't do that....but your experience in investing provides a clearer picture than just saying something is...so. I appreciate it.

I was not involved with Central Penna.'s pension fund,....however I was steward for a former Carolina guy who had transferred from Carlisle to our terminal,........and had his pension portioned between both a defined-benefit, and a defined-contribution fund. Somewhere around here I have a few papers relating to this.
I was asking any Carlisle guys who were actually involved with that fund to provide a little more insight.

For about 8 years, I was involved in a Pension Improvement committee here in W. Penna. We requested the fund's Form 5500 every year, and pooled our money to pay an independent forensic auditor to look at those documents every year.

We were a little "thorn in the side" of our fund because as a group, we had asked some embarrassing questions,........but overall,.....the upshot was that our fund was run fiscally responsibly,....even before the formation of our group. They were doing the best they could, with the several investment firms they were dealing with.
Basically,....with a few peccadilloes.......they ran our fund honestly......

Your last sentence, though,.......belies the problem. How committed to...social change,.....can you be,...if you're willing to forgo social change for a.....higher rate of return?
That is Economic Darwinism distilled to a fine point,..........and the Great Lesson Wall Street is trying to teach us all:

"Nothing is important unless there's a Dollar Value attached to it."

I have a problem with that,....because intangibles, like Honor, Dignity, Patriotism, and Family Values are all rather hard to ...quantify into ..."dollar values".
......and therefore the Money Community disparages those plebeian values,....laughs at them,...as things you provide to the "rubes" that have no monetary value,...but can be twisted in order to...wring more money,...out of working people.

Mark Twain(Samuel Clemens)...was fond of illustrating that point by saying many times that; "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".........not meaning patriotism is bad,......but that scoundrels are the first ones to proclaim loudly how..."Patriotic" they are,..when they can see a buck in it.

Social engineering is about holding people to high standards......IN SPITE of how ..."unprofitable"...it may be. Many Union funds were contemplating selling their large blocks of Wal-Mart stock when Wal-Mart went public with their anti-Union campaign against their employees trying to organize. ........And Teamster funds were considering dumping their Union-Pacific stock....the parent company of Overnite Transport,......while the Teamsters were trying to organize them....

Both actions drove Wall Street into a dizzy,......because they were....UNPROFITABLE!.........NOT because they were MORALLY INTANGIBLE by holding stock in a company that was actively fighting against you and your moral philosophy.

See the difference? I've always said that the only "stock-in-trade" that any Union owns....is it's MORAL leadership. Once a Union loses that,....or trades it for profit and money,......that Union has lost it's MORAL AUTHORITY to lead it's own members..

"Government of the People, by the People"....not by the Profit and Loss Column of Big Business,...dribbling crumbs at their whim to the working schlubs way,way down at the bottom of the economic food chain.
Business should exist to ...serve. Not rule.....

This is why Wall Street (et al.) doesn't care if you have your tiny pile in your personal portfolio........and they DO desperately care that a Large Organization,....like a Labor Union,.....with a VERY LARGE market presence,......based on their hundreds of thousands of members...
MIGHT make a money decision.....based on...MORALS! Oh! The Horror!

The Money People....(...the ones that gave us terms like "junk bonds"...and "trophy wife"...and "pyramid scheme"..) have an abhorrent view of Morals,......and want the rest of us to consider every aspect of OUR lives the same as they do......
In terms of Dollars and Cents.....Profit and Loss.....

That's why they hate Unions. Companies exist to make Profits,...and that's fine.......Unions exist to remind them of the HUMAN COST of what it takes to make those profits,...and to FAIRLY distribute those Profits,....and put FAMILY VALUES before Profits.....

Can you see where Wall Street(et al.) has a problem with .....any...organization of working people?
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I figure most of the financial institutions that control our pension funds are doing the best they can. They really don't want their customers, us, the teamsters, the companies, the GAO, and future customer, etc, to find they are stealing or making vulgar financial decisions. The consequences they face are extremely unpleasant.

Your quote is taken out of context and I don't believe that is what he meant. I always thought it was a excuse for unethical decisions ie I did it in the name of patriotism and that makes my actions moral. But I Googled it and this is what I found. “what he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents.”

As for social engineering and social Darwinism. These are facts of life that will never go away. Some people will sacrifice everything (Martin Luther King and other patriots) to make the world a better place. Other people will always believe in Darwinism (Apartheid, Caste systems) in a survival of the fittest system. But that is not the point; we are debating retirement, why our pension is in financial distress, and who or what is to blame. If we are going with sacrificing everything for a better world (social engineering), then our pension is our sacrifice. But if we want a pension that will keep us though our retirement years, then social Darwinism is it. Money is a zero sum game. Money is a limited resource. ABF has money until I am paid, then I have it; it is deducted from their account and placed into my account. Your pension fund has retirement money until you get paid, then you have; it is deducted from their account and placed into yours. One entity looses while another entity gains. That is why money is a zero sum game. Social engineering is an everyone wins game, and most people in this world do not have a pension and I am not willing to donate my pension to charity so that every person can share in the pension. And that is the problem as I see it.
 
Homesick said:
I figure most of the financial institutions that control our pension funds are doing the best they can. They really don't want their customers, us, the teamsters, the companies, the GAO, and future customer, etc, to find they are stealing or making vulgar financial decisions. The consequences they face are extremely unpleasant.

Your quote is taken out of context and I don't believe that is what he meant. I always thought it was a excuse for unethical decisions ie I did it in the name of patriotism and that makes my actions moral. But I Googled it and this is what I found. “what he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents.”

As for social engineering and social Darwinism. These are facts of life that will never go away. Some people will sacrifice everything (Martin Luther King and other patriots) to make the world a better place. Other people will always believe in Darwinism (Apartheid, Caste systems) in a survival of the fittest system. But that is not the point; we are debating retirement, why our pension is in financial distress, and who or what is to blame. If we are going with sacrificing everything for a better world (social engineering), then our pension is our sacrifice. But if we want a pension that will keep us though our retirement years, then social Darwinism is it. Money is a zero sum game. Money is a limited resource. ABF has money until I am paid, then I have it; it is deducted from their account and placed into my account. Your pension fund has retirement money until you get paid, then you have; it is deducted from their account and placed into yours. One entity looses while another entity gains. That is why money is a zero sum game. Social engineering is an everyone wins game, and most people in this world do not have a pension and I am not willing to donate my pension to charity so that every person can share in the pension. And that is the problem as I see it.
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If I understand this, your comment is a lot like why Obama Care came along. For years middle & rich class had good medical. The poor hardly any. Obama Care tried to level the playing field. And for a while the poor had medical coverage but @ a much higher cost than a employee getting their insurance thru the company. It collapsed for different reasons and the major one was it cost between 7 to 10 grand a year for monthly payments (near 400.00 a month) to the first 5 grand is on you, out of pocket expense. So what 22 year old making 14 bucks an hour in good health will pay that kind of money? They won't. And they didn't. The fine from the IRS was @ most 2 grand a year versus 190grand. Do the math, they did.
 
vongrimmenstein said:
If I understand this, your comment is a lot like why Obama Care came along. For years middle & rich class had good medical. The poor hardly any. Obama Care tried to level the playing field. And for a while the poor had medical coverage but @ a much higher cost than a employee getting their insurance thru the company. It collapsed for different reasons and the major one was it cost between 7 to 10 grand a year for monthly payments (near 400.00 a month) to the first 5 grand is on you, out of pocket expense. So what 22 year old making 14 bucks an hour in good health will pay that kind of money? They won't. And they didn't. The fine from the IRS was @ most 2 grand a year versus 190grand. Do the math, they did.
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Absolutely, and I think the fine/tax refund deduction (most of the women who worked with my wife would get a tax refund and the IRS would reduce it by $600.00 or so) was considerably less than $2k. The poor are always getting shafted in America. I absolutely agree with Canary that this is an effort by the government to force citizens into the workforce.
 
canaryinthemine said:
I think the country is more than $21 billion in debt.....in fact, in the last two years, our debt has exploded to $21 trillion.....in spite of promises made to eliminate that debt.

Yes, you're right that President Obama bragged about the TARP money being repaid. It was loaned......to fix a problem. Just like the Butch Lewis Act will provide loans to fix a problem.
And, yes..........that TARP money was pretty much paid back.
GM claims it paid back $39 billion,...but the GAO says they still owe $10 billion.....Sounds like the accountants and lawyers will duel this out with sharp pencils for years......But that's typical of Big Business,...whose sole reason for existence is to satisfy shareholders at the expense of the customers , products, safety,...and, of course, the employees......

And who mismanaged the pensions?....Wasn't me......or my fellow workers......Could it be the same people who mismanaged the economy and caused many funds to be pushed into insolvency,....along with many banks, investment firms, Bear-Stearns...and half the value of the portfolios of working people with 401(k)'s?
How about the legislators who went along with the high-paying business-class donors,...and changed the laws to remove economic safeguards so that those same business-class donors could gamble recklessly with other people's money? Would you consider them to be....at least,...partially complicit in this mess? By not considering the long-term effect on working people and the economy,...because there was SHORT-TERM profits to be made?

I'm a taxpayer, too.......Companies like Hostess Bakeries who had pension obligations to PAY their fair share to those funds...OR dump them into Pension Benefit Guarantee Insurance....backed by Government(taxpayer) funds.........USED changes in the tax laws to escape their obligations and DUMP them squarely on us.....you and me.....taxpayers........

.....(..I will never allow a Hostess Twinkie in my house.....Ever...)....

Where is your outrage with the slimy corporate tactics and their enablers in Congress?

I congratulate you for having the foresight to "see all this coming".....May I borrow your crystal ball for a while?

The pensions were set up,.....and backed up 50 years ago by Government(PBGI) insurance.....BECAUSE....many working people's circumstances didn't allow them to be "lucky" enough to not get taken advantage of by their employers and sundry "investment" firms.....

Surely you're not proposing punishing the.....retirees.......who believed what they were told about defined-benefit pensions being stable?
As is your 401(k) manager now, telling you and other employees how many millions of dollars they will have 40 years from now?
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\\

$20 Billion of the TARP $$$ GM paid back was from a grant Obama gave GM.
So the taxpayers paid themselves back with a new $20 Billion loan...
These schemes never work and never will..
Let's be honest it did not take much to see this disaster in the teamster pensions coming. As each carrier shut down and no new carriers contribution into the funds it was a ticking time bomb. The union leadership could not have been that stupid...
They allowed UPS to pull out CSPF and eliminate any withdrawal liability for a one time payout. In lieu of organizing UPSF.
Face it the union sat idle as this happened. Now they want the taxpayers to fund their retirements they allowed to dry up??
As for slimly corporate tactics you need to be specific rather than make bogus arguments.
Unions give far more to crooked politicians that most lobbyists. In 2016 union gave Democrats something like $1.4 Billion.
No wonder they want to pay unions back with taxpayer $$$$$$
 
Homesick said:
Says the person who never accepts responsibility for any of their decisions. With you it is always someone else fault. You buy a car that you cannot afford, it is the finance company and the auto dealers fault. Run up credit card debt, then the credit card company should not have approved you for that much credit. The company you work for puts money in your retirement account, then it is their responsibility to monitor and maintain it. Not your responsibility. Your the victim.
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Now your making crap up idiot!The usual from you though. I don’t have any debt. Complete liar!
 
Man,.......All real good comments...Be fantastic to get all of you guys in a room,....Bro.'s Von, Puff Driver, Homesick........(..and some of the others..)....
I'd even spring for the coffee..........


Bro. Homesick:
"As for social engineering and social Darwinism. These are facts of life that will never go away. Some people will sacrifice everything (Martin Luther King and other patriots) to make the world a better place. Other people will always believe in Darwinism (Apartheid, Caste systems) in a survival of the fittest system. But that is not the point; we are debating retirement, why our pension is in financial distress, and who or what is to blame. If we are going with sacrificing everything for a better world (social engineering), then our pension is our sacrifice. But if we want a pension that will keep us though our retirement years, then social Darwinism is it. Money is a zero sum game. Money is a limited resource. ABF has money until I am paid, then I have it; it is deducted from their account and placed into my account. Your pension fund has retirement money until you get paid, then you have; it is deducted from their account and placed into yours. One entity looses while another entity gains. That is why money is a zero sum game. Social engineering is an everyone wins game, and most people in this world do not have a pension and I am not willing to donate my pension to charity so that every person can share in the pension. And that is the problem as I see it.[/QUOTE]"

I'd have to agree that "social engineering" requires a certain amount of altruism........and to be perfect and right about it would require an inhuman amount.........No one is that....perfect.....to be absolutely correct in trying to cure the world's monetary ills and disparities.......

The "smoking gun" in all this that seems to bother me the most,....is the fact that small, individual, "amateur" retirement accounts seem to have been growing steadily,..if slowly......
Whereas, professionally-administered investment services for the MEPFs somehow can't seem to staunch the outflow of money....in spite of an 8 year growing economy.....

Have the Big Business donors lobbied Congress to ....change the rules for defined-benefit pensions......so they CAN'T gain?

I know part of that is demographics.....Union pension funds AND participants are top-heavy with older workers,......10 years older than pretty much any other occupation, on average. We can lay that one at the feet of trucking management,....who decided it's cheaper to hire the last bankruptcies' employees than establish training programs to bring in new ..(..younger..)..employees.

Like other industries do....

Congress caused this unintended consequence with the passage of the Surface Transportation Act of 1980........Deregulation...

....Oh,......and I'm a Twain fanatic.......Do not,...at pain of distinct approbation,.....question my authority on Mr. Clemens......
(..kidding you, Brother.....Twain was highly incensed over the U.S's involvement in the Spanish-American War,....which was created whole-cloth by William Randolph Hearst, and Joseph Pulitzer.........to sell newspapers...He used that phrase to describe their beating of the "war drum" in print......Read Twain's "The War Prayer",......a stunning short story....)....

(...End Of Literary Interlude..)..


vongrimmenstein said:
If I understand this, your comment is a lot like why Obama Care came along. For years middle & rich class had good medical. The poor hardly any. Obama Care tried to level the playing field. And for a while the poor had medical coverage but @ a much higher cost than a employee getting their insurance thru the company. It collapsed for different reasons and the major one was it cost between 7 to 10 grand a year for monthly payments (near 400.00 a month) to the first 5 grand is on you, out of pocket expense. So what 22 year old making 14 bucks an hour in good health will pay that kind of money? They won't. And they didn't. The fine from the IRS was @ most 2 grand a year versus 190grand. Do the math, they did.
Click to expand...

Bro.Von,.....the true cost of medical care is almost impossible to find out at companies where they administer it in-house.......But us guys in Union jobs are supposed to be provided with a monthly receipt as to the true cost of insurance AS NEGOTIATED through a group plan........You probably had that hanging in your union bulletin board,...it's required contractually.....

That cost, in our area,....Group Plan pricing, mind you,........was $1481.00, roughly,..a month. That's probably a low-end monthly cost-per-employee,..as Supplemental areas negotiated across company lines for Master contracts.
I know you retired, Brother.....What was the monthly cost of the COBRA option to you?
In my case,....the Obamacare option was about $400.00 less than the COBRA option....(..the ONLY option available for group coverage prior to Obamacare..)
You are right in your example with healthy young people, though. Imperfect solution to rein in outrageous Insurance companies.......Let's Go, Congress! Fix the Insurance Cost.....


Puff Driver said:
\\

$20 Billion of the TARP $$$ GM paid back was from a grant Obama gave GM.
So the taxpayers paid themselves back with a new $20 Billion loan...
These schemes never work and never will..
Let's be honest it did not take much to see this disaster in the teamster pensions coming. As each carrier shut down and no new carriers contribution into the funds it was a ticking time bomb. The union leadership could not have been that stupid...
They allowed UPS to pull out CSPF and eliminate any withdrawal liability for a one time payout. In lieu of organizing UPSF.
Face it the union sat idle as this happened. Now they want the taxpayers to fund their retirements they allowed to dry up??
As for slimly corporate tactics you need to be specific rather than make bogus arguments.
Unions give far more to crooked politicians that most lobbyists. In 2016 union gave Democrats something like $1.4 Billion.
No wonder they want to pay unions back with taxpayer $$$$$$
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Bro. Puff Driver,.......see above for the "ticking time bomb"........ You and I agree that the situation was...exacerbated greatly by short-sighted and.....Puzzling..(...I'm being Polite..)......actions of the IBT Executive Board over the last decade or so........

But.....More "specific" about slimy corporate tactics? Good Grief! Let's start with page one of pretty much any newspaper on any given day in any given city......The specifics are in print......

As far as Unions donating far more than Lobbyists,...........I'd like to refer you to the OpenSecrets.Org website,...which is a Government watchdog group who tracks election spending.
Go to "Top Organization Spending",......and you'll see that Unions...ALL Unions.....are way,way, down on the list. Actually, Unions are out-spent 10 to 1 by corporate lobbyists,..especially after the Citizen's United ruling.....

Far as I'm concerned......ALL elections should be publicly funded,...with NO outside money,....Union OR Big Business involved...
...(...Yeah,...Like that will happen..)....
And I say this as a former Teamster PAC Fund treasurer.....
 
canaryinthemine said:
Man,.......All real good comments...Be fantastic to get all of you guys in a room,....Bro.'s Von, Puff Driver, Homesick........(..and some of the others..)....
I'd even spring for the coffee..........


Bro. Homesick:
"As for social engineering and social Darwinism. These are facts of life that will never go away. Some people will sacrifice everything (Martin Luther King and other patriots) to make the world a better place. Other people will always believe in Darwinism (Apartheid, Caste systems) in a survival of the fittest system. But that is not the point; we are debating retirement, why our pension is in financial distress, and who or what is to blame. If we are going with sacrificing everything for a better world (social engineering), then our pension is our sacrifice. But if we want a pension that will keep us though our retirement years, then social Darwinism is it. Money is a zero sum game. Money is a limited resource. ABF has money until I am paid, then I have it; it is deducted from their account and placed into my account. Your pension fund has retirement money until you get paid, then you have; it is deducted from their account and placed into yours. One entity looses while another entity gains. That is why money is a zero sum game. Social engineering is an everyone wins game, and most people in this world do not have a pension and I am not willing to donate my pension to charity so that every person can share in the pension. And that is the problem as I see it.
Click to expand...
"

I'd have to agree that "social engineering" requires a certain amount of altruism........and to be perfect and right about it would require an inhuman amount.........No one is that....perfect.....to be absolutely correct in trying to cure the world's monetary ills and disparities.......

The "smoking gun" in all this that seems to bother me the most,....is the fact that small, individual, "amateur" retirement accounts seem to have been growing steadily,..if slowly......
Whereas, professionally-administered investment services for the MEPFs somehow can't seem to staunch the outflow of money....in spite of an 8 year growing economy.....

Have the Big Business donors lobbied Congress to ....change the rules for defined-benefit pensions......so they CAN'T gain?

I know part of that is demographics.....Union pension funds AND participants are top-heavy with older workers,......10 years older than pretty much any other occupation, on average. We can lay that one at the feet of trucking management,....who decided it's cheaper to hire the last bankruptcies' employees than establish training programs to bring in new ..(..younger..)..employees.

Like other industries do....

Congress caused this unintended consequence with the passage of the Surface Transportation Act of 1980........Deregulation...

....Oh,......and I'm a Twain fanatic.......Do not,...at pain of distinct approbation,.....question my authority on Mr. Clemens......
(..kidding you, Brother.....Twain was highly incensed over the U.S's involvement in the Spanish-American War,....which was created whole-cloth by William Randolph Hearst, and Joseph Pulitzer.........to sell newspapers...He used that phrase to describe their beating of the "war drum" in print......Read Twain's "The War Prayer",......a stunning short story....)....

(...End Of Literary Interlude..)..




Bro.Von,.....the true cost of medical care is almost impossible to find out at companies where they administer it in-house.......But us guys in Union jobs are supposed to be provided with a monthly receipt as to the true cost of insurance AS NEGOTIATED through a group plan........You probably had that hanging in your union bulletin board,...it's required contractually.....

That cost, in our area,....Group Plan pricing, mind you,........was $1481.00, roughly,..a month. That's probably a low-end monthly cost-per-employee,..as Supplemental areas negotiated across company lines for Master contracts.
I know you retired, Brother.....What was the monthly cost of the COBRA option to you?
In my case,....the Obamacare option was about $400.00 less than the COBRA option....(..the ONLY option available for group coverage prior to Obamacare..)
You are right in your example with healthy young people, though. Imperfect solution to rein in outrageous Insurance companies.......Let's Go, Congress! Fix the Insurance Cost.....




Bro. Puff Driver,.......see above for the "ticking time bomb"........ You and I agree that the situation was...exacerbated greatly by short-sighted and.....Puzzling..(...I'm being Polite..)......actions of the IBT Executive Board over the last decade or so........

But.....More "specific" about slimy corporate tactics? Good Grief! Let's start with page one of pretty much any newspaper on any given day in any given city......The specifics are in print......

As far as Unions donating far more than Lobbyists,...........I'd like to refer you to the OpenSecrets.Org website,...which is a Government watchdog group who tracks election spending.
Go to "Top Organization Spending",......and you'll see that Unions...ALL Unions.....are way,way, down on the list. Actually, Unions are out-spent 10 to 1 by corporate lobbyists,..especially after the Citizen's United ruling.....

Far as I'm concerned......ALL elections should be publicly funded,...with NO outside money,....Union OR Big Business involved...
...(...Yeah,...Like that will happen..)....
And I say this as a former Teamster PAC Fund treasurer.....[/QUOTE]


Ya hit the nail head on on this one. von.
 
Update,...of sorts...on the Butch Lewis Act, S.2147.

Apparently the Senate Committee of Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs....Sen. Mike Crapo(R) Idaho , Chairman.......hasn't seen fit to allow this Bill out of Committee yet.
I was informed by the liaison person I get my information through that there should be enough votes in the House of Representatives for this Bill to pass,....but there are not enough in the Senate....along Party lines.....for this Bill to come out of Committee.
The Committee is in possession of the CBO(Congressional Budget Office) report that S.2147 will cost only a third of what pension defaults through PBGI will cost,...and those are Government-mandated.

The only reason this Bill is not proceeding,.....is just pure partisan disdain for working people. Even the Chamber of Commerce is supporting this Bill.
What gives?

The Chairmen of the Joint Select Committee on the Solvency of MEPFs are Sen. Orrin Hatch(R) Utah, and Sen. Sherrod Brown (D), Ohio......Call them.

Call your Senator, gents.....Call MY Senator.....Bob Casey(D),Pa. is a co-sponsor,......Sen.Pat Toomey(R), Pa. won't even acknowledge letters......

From what I'm told,...if only a few Senators switch their position on this Bill,.......it will proceed.

Hey!.....Actually save the taxpayers money?....Why Not?

The Big Business donors want your pension to be drained,.......and thereby force you back into the workforce....

Driver Shortage "Fixed".........
 
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I was told by a co author of this bill, (her staff) it will never get out of committee. Thus not to house/senate. This last week!
 
canaryinthemine said:
Update,...of sorts...on the Butch Lewis Act, S.2147.

Apparently the Senate Committee of Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs....Sen. Mike Crapo(R) Idaho , Chairman.......hasn't seen fit to allow this Bill out of Committee yet.
I was informed by the liaison person I get my information through that there should be enough votes in the House of Representatives for this Bill to pass,....but there are not enough in the Senate....along Party lines.....for this Bill to come out of Committee.
The Committee is in possession of the CBO(Congressional Budget Office) report that S.2147 will cost only a third of what pension defaults through PBGI will cost,...and those are Government-mandated.

The only reason this Bill is not proceeding,.....is just pure partisan disdain for working people. Even the Chamber of Commerce is supporting this Bill.
What gives?

The Chairmen of the Joint Select Committee on the Solvency of MEPFs are Sen. Orrin Hatch(R) Utah, and Sen. Sherrod Brown (D), Ohio......Call them.

Call your Senator, gents.....Call MY Senator.....Bob Casey(D),Pa. is a co-sponsor,......Sen.Pat Toomey(R), Pa. won't even acknowledge letters......

From what I'm told,...if only a few Senators switch their position on this Bill,.......it will proceed.

Hey!.....Actually save the taxpayers money?....Why Not?

The Big Business donors want your pension to be drained,.......and thereby force you back into the workforce....

Driver Shortage "Fixed".........
Click to expand...
Sorry to burst your bubble Canary but there is no such thing as a low interest rate government loan. It is money created out of the thin air by the federal reserve. The federal reserve has 4 trillion dollars of T bills and QE3 bills it's trying to unload so it can control the next economic down turn. They are in no position to create more money to pay for the buth lewis act. Get a life komrad.
 
iam4us said:
I was told by a co author of this bill, (her staff) it will never get out of committee. Thus not to house/senate. This last week!
Click to expand...
When I called 2 weeks ago I was told by a senate staffer that he thought the bill was dead. I was surprised when Canary posted it would be voted on this week. I thought I got bad info from the senate staff guy. I'm still hopeful.
 
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