ABF | Driver-facing Cameras

[canaryinthemine]

Canary, I'm a little concerned about your well-being, posting at 5AM?? this should be reserved for folks my age,
If not working or fishing, you should be sleeping.

Sorry,.......I wet the bed,....and I figured if I was up, I might as well vent some spleen.....
Plus, I get to hide in the basement.......when you wet the bed.....EVERYONE in the bed gets up......

 

[Trucker 206]

Sorry,.......I wet the bed,....and I figured if I was up, I might as well vent some spleen.....
Plus, I get to hide in the basement.......when you wet the bed.....EVERYONE in the bed gets up......

That might give my wife a new place to send me when I get mischievous. No basement here, but a certain part of the crawlspace under the house is tall enough to stand up in, being the house is on a hill. She would ‘appreciate’ that information, so...fellas...let’s agree this conversation never took place!

 

[runawaytrain]

I am here to tell you there are Teamster Brothers who have the courage to push this both with grievances and legal challenges.....

But will the Teamsters use all of their resources to push this through? I’m talking about the leadership. I’m talking about Hoffa. When the company starts crying that insurance companies are demanding these devices and they need them to help keep insurance premiums down along with many other reasons. Will the Teamsters leaders get their legal team together and fight this with all the power they have? All the grievances in the world doesn’t matter if your leaders won’t back you. That’s the bigger question you need to ask as this moves forward.

 

[canaryinthemine]

But will the Teamsters use all of their resources to push this through? I’m talking about the leadership. I’m talking about Hoffa. When the company starts crying that insurance companies are demanding these devices and they need them to help keep insurance premiums down along with many other reasons. Will the Teamsters leaders get their legal team together and fight this with all the power they have? All the grievances in the world doesn’t matter if your leaders won’t back you. That’s the bigger question you need to ask as this moves forward.

Good point,.....We’ll have to see.
But,.....in the meantime,.......outside of the grievance procedure,.......I distinctly recommend giving your employer, and the Union ,. A letter stating they need your written permission to view, use, or sell, your personal image....
....On a per incident basis.

With all the privacy issues in the news,.....the legal system might be your biggest hammer....
That is,...if the Teamsters fall flat on their faces on this one...

 

[canaryinthemine]

Looking at Samsera Camera sites, there is a statement that the cameras are for "detecting high-risk driver behavior in real time".....

NOT for....."exonerating" drivers........

They will be used for Discipline,....Coercion,.....and weeding out of anyone they consider "undesirable"......

The company will set the parameters of what they consider...."high risk" behavior. It could be Draconic,...such as not having both hands on the wheel when your nose itches......

The Teamsters should recognize that these cameras are being marketed AS a Disciplinary device,.....with NO oversight as to what constitutes "high risk" behavior.....

The potential for abuse,...and the singling out of anyone they consider...."undesirable",.....will be great,....and almost inevitable for companies to use for......"selective" discipline,....right up to discharge.

Ball is in your Court,....Teamsters Union. Do you stand for your member's Rights?.....or do you cower behind the Corporation's coattails,...sticking your tongue out, and thumbing your nose at the rank-and-file?

 

[00mustang]

Got to see my "first" video from the camera's in our units, of a deer hit no less and it was mine. Yep I did hit a deer and stopped and reported it so why am I looking at this?? What could you have done to miss that deer? How long after you saw the deer did you react to try to avoid it?? Blah blah blah. First off "Boss there were 4 deer not just one but after i got stopped there were only 3 living and they left the scene of the accident. second as you should have known by know when I braked and took off to the right to miss them since you have the video. Since those 2 conditions triggered the camera. Boss says we only see 1 deer ok as i pull my phone and says let's see who's camera is better your's or mine. Several seconds of silence or more some unhappy faces etc, I finally break the silence and said anything else you would like to talk about and out the door I went

 

[canaryinthemine]

Got to see my "first" video from the camera's in our units, of a deer hit no less and it was mine. Yep I did hit a deer and stopped and reported it so why am I looking at this?? What could you have done to miss that deer? How long after you saw the deer did you react to try to avoid it?? Blah blah blah. First off "Boss there were 4 deer not just one but after i got stopped there were only 3 living and they left the scene of the accident. second as you should have known by know when I braked and took off to the right to miss them since you have the video. Since those 2 conditions triggered the camera. Boss says we only see 1 deer ok as i pull my phone and says let's see who's camera is better your's or mine. Several seconds of silence or more some unhappy faces etc, I finally break the silence and said anything else you would like to talk about and out the door I went

What ,......were they upset you didn’t get a deposition from the three remaining deer?
Did you secure a portion of the carcass, in case the relatives of the deceased deer decide to sue?

Were they trying to say you had Road Rage and .....deliberately drove into the herd,......because you hate deer meat?

Did you tell them about the skunk.....just prior to the deer?
Skunk trumps deer any day, in my opinion.......

So many questions I have, Brother.....

Seriously........glad you had your own camera......Apparently with a better perspective.
And.........We can now see how the managers have nothing better to do than to critique your driving....

Yup....that’ll make things......”safer”.....

 

[seabreeze]

Got to see my "first" video from the camera's in our units, of a deer hit no less and it was mine. Yep I did hit a deer and stopped and reported it so why am I looking at this?? What could you have done to miss that deer? How long after you saw the deer did you react to try to avoid it?? Blah blah blah. First off "Boss there were 4 deer not just one but after i got stopped there were only 3 living and they left the scene of the accident. second as you should have known by know when I braked and took off to the right to miss them since you have the video. Since those 2 conditions triggered the camera. Boss says we only see 1 deer ok as i pull my phone and says let's see who's camera is better your's or mine. Several seconds of silence or more some unhappy faces etc, I finally break the silence and said anything else you would like to talk about and out the door I went

I cannot believe you would blatantly run down a poor deer, when you had the option of saving the deer and wrecking your old truck, or slaughtering the deer, you chose the latter.
After all, I'm sure you were not hauling Lamborghinis.
I feel I should report this incident to the SPCA, the audacity!!
Heard this word on TV (audacity) thought I'd give it a try.

 

[canaryinthemine]

I cannot believe you would blatantly run down a poor deer, when you had the option of saving the deer and wrecking your old truck, or slaughtering the deer, you chose the latter.
After all, I'm sure you were not hauling Lamborghinis.
I feel I should report this incident to the SPCA, the audacity!!
Heard this word on TV (audacity) thought I'd give it a try.

Ah,....you heard it wrong, I think........Oddas City is in Northern Arkansas, near Bugscuttle,...and just down the road from Hogslaughterville.......

 

[canaryinthemine]

I cannot believe you would blatantly run down a poor deer, when you had the option of saving the deer and wrecking your old truck, or slaughtering the deer, you chose the latter.
After all, I'm sure you were not hauling Lamborghinis.
I feel I should report this incident to the SPCA, the audacity!!
Heard this word on TV (audacity) thought I'd give it a try.

Hey!....That's right!....He drives a Parking Lot..........Last time I drove a Parking Lot,....any animal I hit,...went through the Meat Grinder.......Not much substantial evidence left........

And,.....you make the mechanics really mad if you go into the shop for a trailer brake adjustment .....especially right after hitting a Skunk...

 

[Clandestine_ice]

I wouldn't worry 'bout it! Y'all ABF drivers have a face for radio anyways

 

[00mustang]

I cannot believe you would blatantly run down a poor deer, when you had the option of saving the deer and wrecking your old truck, or slaughtering the deer, you chose the latter.
After all, I'm sure you were not hauling Lamborghinis.
I feel I should report this incident to the SPCA, the audacity!!
Heard this word on TV (audacity) thought I'd give it a try.

Sea quit using those big words I don't understand, I had to ask carany what they meant. Yeah I guess you could say that if I hadn't been texting and waatching you tube videos I may have missed him, actully i was trying to get all of them but since my truck isn't turned up (per Wong) I couldn't catch them. Even saved the shop guys the nasty job of washing my truck went to the streakin beacon those guys love to clean all the stuff off

 

[seabreeze]

Sea quit using those big words I don't understand, I had to ask carany what they meant. Yeah I guess you could say that if I hadn't been texting and waatching you tube videos I may have missed him, actully i was trying to get all of them but since my truck isn't turned up (per Wong) I couldn't catch them. Even saved the shop guys the nasty job of washing my truck went to the streakin beacon those guys love to clean all the stuff off

Important thing is, did you share your roadkill with the cleanup crew?

 

[seabreeze]

Guess Canary didn't wet the bed this am, I see he's still asleep.

 

[canaryinthemine]

Guess Canary didn't wet the bed this am, I see he's still asleep.

ZZZZZZ

 

[canaryinthemine]

Woke up this Sunday morning wondering.......

.......Just who owns the ....video....the camera captures?

If the companies decide to.....sell the video to a third party who wants to make a Driver Safety video......
......will any driver portrayed in the Safety video.....get paid for use of their image?

The video stored on a database at corporate headquarters belongs to........who?
Those are OUR personal images.....the cameras are aimed at ONE person at a time......

Would unscrupulous executives put our images on the....digital marketplace,....for use to anyone who wants images of people to help sell......driver sleep aids, CB radios, moustache wax, sunglasses, condoms, oranges, suntan lotion,......pretty much anything that could be sold.....

Photoshop, anyone?

I think it is CRITICAL to deny companies permission to view your PERSONAL image.........and to allow them,....by default,....to OWN your image......

 

[runawaytrain]

Woke up this Sunday morning wondering.......

.......Just who owns the ....video....the camera captures?

If the companies decide to.....sell the video to a third party who wants to make a Driver Safety video......
......will any driver portrayed in the Safety video.....get paid for use of their image?

The video stored on a database at corporate headquarters belongs to........who?
Those are OUR personal images.....the cameras are aimed at ONE person at a time......

Would unscrupulous executives put our images on the....digital marketplace,....for use to anyone who wants images of people to help sell......driver sleep aids, CB radios, moustache wax, sunglasses, condoms, oranges, suntan lotion,......pretty much anything that could be sold.....

Photoshop, anyone?

I think it is CRITICAL to deny companies permission to view your PERSONAL image.........and to allow them,....by default,....to OWN your image......

All the things you mentioned were addressed at SAIA when we first got them. They are company property and shall be used for driver coaching (or discipline) although discipline was never mentioned as they were shoving this new technology down our throats. They would be sued if they did anything of what you mentioned. They have a legal department too and they know what they can and can’t get away with. Not to be critical but you’re sounding a little paranoid. Those thoughts are extreme. You guys just need to focus on how these cameras can cost you your jobs. And they will cost many if you allow them. You better do whatever it takes to keep them out but honestly I don’t think you stand a chance. If they aren’t strictly forbidden in your last contract and the door was left open then my friends they are coming and there’s not a ****ing thing you can do about it other than to blame the Teamsters leaders for allowing it. But then again you did sign off on it to my understanding. Correct me if I’m wrong. Ironically at first I was for them because the company misled us and promised they wouldn’t be weaponized. They said they could save us at times from unscrupulous 4 wheelers drivers trying to capitalize on the companies million dollar insurance policies, and they could at times. There is a upside but the downside is far greater. They burned me a couple of times so I retired before they actually terminated me. Those stale green lights are killer ... when does it become safer to run them on a slick road than to lock up your brakes? It’s pretty black and white to safety with no gray area at all. All I can say is approach all lights at about 20 miles an hour and be ready to lock your brakes down. And STOP signs I won’t even bother to get into. And tailgating after being cut off... following distance will bust your chops. The company set their policies. At first they would get you for not wearing your seatbelt on the yard or private property but they did eliminate that policy. On and On my friends. I lived this nightmare. I hope you guys don’t have to.

 

[canaryinthemine]

All the things you mentioned were addressed at SAIA when we first got them. They are company property and shall be used for driver coaching (or discipline) although discipline was never mentioned as they were shoving this new technology down our throats. They would be sued if they did anything of what you mentioned. They have a legal department too and they know what they can and can’t get away with. Not to be critical but you’re sounding a little paranoid. Those thoughts are extreme. You guys just need to focus on how these cameras can cost you your jobs. And they will cost many if you allow them. You better do whatever it takes to keep them out but honestly I don’t think you stand a chance. If they aren’t strictly forbidden in your last contract and the door was left open then my friends they are coming and there’s not a thing you can do about it other than to blame the Teamsters leaders for allowing it. But then again you did sign off on it to my understanding. Correct me if I’m wrong. Ironically at first I was for them because the company misled us and promised they wouldn’t be weaponized. They said they could save us at times from unscrupulous 4 wheelers drivers trying to capitalize on the companies million dollar insurance policies, and they could at times. There is a upside but the downside is far greater. They burned me a couple of times so I retired before they actually terminated me. Those stale green lights are killer ... when does it become safer to run them on a slick road than to lock up your brakes? It’s pretty black and white to safety with no gray area at all. All I can say is approach all lights at about 20 miles an hour and be ready to lock your brakes down. And STOP signs I won’t even bother to get into. And tailgating after being cut off... following distance will bust your chops. The company set their policies. At first they would get you for not wearing your seatbelt on the yard or private property but they did eliminate that policy. On and On my friends. I lived this nightmare. I hope you guys don’t have to.

Good points.......Yeah,..I may seem a little paranoid,.......but then I see credit card companies selling our personal information,....banks and stores gathering information about what, where, and when we spend our money on,...and selling that on an open market.....
.....and then I don’t feel like our employers would balk at selling “images” they “own”........to make a few extra bucks....

After all,....if I can conceive of the idea,.....it’s just a matter of time before some executive figures it out, too...
Especially if it is never spelled out in legal terms, who “owns” your image once it’s captured on company equipment, and stored in a company databank.

I think that’s one of the reasons Canada outlawed driver-facing cameras. The gathering and storage of personal video seems,.....to the Canadians, anyway.....to be the property of the individual who was captured on camera.
Maybe some Canadian drivers can enlighten us.

I do know that is the reason some cities are outlawing facial recognition cameras on city lampposts.

And,......yes.......as the companies have no restrictions on the parameters of what constitutes......”safe driving”.....I can see them ......selectively.......weeding out anyone......”unsafe”,....or older,.....or vocal critics,......or ones just off disability......or ones just filed grievances....
And on and on,.......as long as THEY control the rules.

I completely agree with you,.......Sometimes you’ve got to make a decision based on things the camera won’t pick up......and blow through a stale green light......because it’s safer than a hard braking instance.....
We all know the roads,.....and the ever-changing conditions (weather, traffic, load weight....)....are not what you would call.....”perfect”.

 

[Homesick]

Good points.......Yeah,..I may seem a little paranoid,.......but then I see credit card companies selling our personal information,....banks and stores gathering information about what, where, and when we spend our money on,...and selling that on an open market.....
.....and then I don’t feel like our employers would balk at selling “images” they “own”........to make a few extra bucks....

After all,....if I can conceive of the idea,.....it’s just a matter of time before some executive figures it out, too...
Especially if it is never spelled out in legal terms, who “owns” your image once it’s captured on company equipment, and stored in a company databank.

I think that’s one of the reasons Canada outlawed driver-facing cameras. The gathering and storage of personal video seems,.....to the Canadians, anyway.....to be the property of the individual who was captured on camera.
Maybe some Canadian drivers can enlighten us.

I do know that is the reason some cities are outlawing facial recognition cameras on city lampposts.

And,......yes.......as the companies have no restrictions on the parameters of what constitutes......”safe driving”.....I can see them ......selectively.......weeding out anyone......”unsafe”,....or older,.....or vocal critics,......or ones just off disability......or ones just filed grievances....
And on and on,.......as long as THEY control the rules.

I completely agree with you,.......Sometimes you’ve got to make a decision based on things the camera won’t pick up......and blow through a stale green light......because it’s safer than a hard braking instance.....
We all know the roads,.....and the ever-changing conditions (weather, traffic, load weight....)....are not what you would call.....”perfect”.

Brother, could you give a little more information on this Canadian outlawing of driver facing cameras please? The only court case I seem to find is against Sysco Quebec in Superior Court (one of the lower courts). The case I researched took 5 years (2012-2017) to resolve and, very importantly, states that it is only against a single company.

I don't know if anyone heard but ABF had a meeting with 22 (it was supposed to be 23 but one flight was canceled so please don't get stuck on this detail) members of ABF current and past Road Team members in Dallas last Friday to discuss inward facing cameras. ABF management is planning future meetings and I would like to be prepared to pose a few questions. So if anyone has any information on other cases more relevant than the Sysco Quebec in Superior Court case I would like a link or a case number, or the name name of the defendants, or anything I can use to research it.

 

[canaryinthemine]

Brother, could you give a little more information on this Canadian outlawing of driver facing cameras please? The only court case I seem to find is against Sysco Quebec in Superior Court (one of the lower courts). The case I researched took 5 years (2012-2017) to resolve and, very importantly, states that it is only against a single company.

I don't know if anyone heard but ABF had a meeting with 22 (it was supposed to be 23 but one flight was canceled so please don't get stuck on this detail) members of ABF current and past Road Team members in Dallas last Friday to discuss inward facing cameras. ABF management is planning future meetings and I would like to be prepared to pose a few questions. So if anyone has any information on other cases more relevant than the Sysco Quebec in Superior Court case I would like a link or a case number, or the name name of the defendants, or anything I can use to research it.

Bro. Homesick,...The lawsuit filed by Union employees of Sysco Canada,.....and the consequent upholding of the arbitrator's decision by a Canadian Superior Court,...I would imaging, would be the reference case in any other lawsuit. Not exactly sure how Canadian law differs from American court systems, but I think that if the same ruling was reinforced by an American Superior Court,....no company would waste the Court's time by filing a redundant lawsuit.
In effect,....that Superior court ruling would end driver-facing cameras.

Not sure if driver-facing cameras are legal in European trucking. Border crossings involve many different governments. Haven't really researched how European trucking companies comply with different sets of invasion-of-privacy and surveillance laws as they cross borders.

As we all know, trucking companies and legal groups are all for it,........SOLELY to decrease the trucking companies' liability exposure......and the consequent lower insurance payouts in the event of an accident.
What many drivers aren't aware of, is that if YOU, the driver, have a legal ruling,...based on camera evidence,..that you are "at fault"...even partially,.....your Homeowner's Liability insurance MAY be tapped .

How many drivers will face a so-called "jury of your peers" in a civil court......and have an adverse ruling .....based on jurors' feelings about trucks,...and years of viewing ambulance-chasing lawyer's commercials on Television about "Have you been hurt by Dangerous Large Trucks?"....

The fact that many companies either have removed,...or have decided not to use,...driver-facing cameras, tells me that the legality of such an intrusion of privacy has not been challenged in a United States Court of Law yet.....
Otherwise, the companies would jam them down your throat, and tell you there's nothing you can do about it......

If you go to TruckingTruth.com..........they will show you the companies who do have cameras,.....and those who don't, or have removed them.
If you look at the two lists,.....it becomes apparent,...to those of us in the trucking industry,....that the companies who NEED some sort of driver supervision,......are the ones who LACK extensive driver training...
....and are the VERY ONES who DO NOT have cameras.

Averritt, Heartland , Swift(?)(!!!), Celadon, Schneider, Werner, PAM, Knight, Maverick...........In MY Opinion,....if there was a case to be made for any sort of "driver supervision",.....it would be with THOSE companies,....the ones with 95% turnover rate in a year's time,......and the industrie's leading accident rates.......

Instead,.....companies with long-term Union, and non-Union LTL employees,....and other career established trucking jobs, with..."older" drivers.......are the ones with cameras installed.

Prima Facie evidence,....in My Opinion,......that the real reason for cameras is,....Discipline,(..based on arbitrary company rules..)..and Liability Limiting of company exposure.....
.....(...and the gradual elimination of older drivers who get....disgusted...when their 30+ years, and millions of miles.....gets critiqued by some desk-bound, pointy-headed bean-counter,......who drives maybe 16,000 miles a year in his BMW,...and couldn't tell you a glad hand from a gearshift two tries out of three.......)......

The only thing holding companies up,........is the legality.....of the cameras,...and the collection of personal images.
And,.....apparently the Canadian Courts have decided for Canadian drivers. The ruling in Canada was announced August 21, 2017, by the Quebec Superior Court.

I hope this information,.....and the obligatory heavy dose of Opinion,.....helps you in asking the ABF company officials why they seem to need personal surveillance of....."The best drivers in the world".....(companies' words...)