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ABF | First paragraph tells you how bad it is. 87 year old as a "new" employee!

canaryinthemine said:
Of course the money is invested in index funds.......It's done by professional investing firms that usually are contracted to the Pension funds based on their performance.
The Individual risk,..........and, mind you,...as I said above, the funds are invested by performance-based professionals,.........is spread out over the participants of the entire fund. Very low risk for an individual,....as opposed to someone blundering about the stock market,...convinced he's another Warren Buffet.......

I've had a 401(k) since 1994,......Prior to that , I had the remains of an ESOP from Ryder Systems. Watching the ups and downs of the market over a 25 year period,.....I'm glad I wasn't counting on solely retiring on a combination of 401(k) and Social Security.

Can you explain to me, Brother,....as to why the traditional annuity rate of 5% was lowered to 3.5% during a bull market roughly about 3 years ago? I know that all of the annuity issuers are private entities, unanswerable to any Government agency as far as how they profit,.........but that simple cut in the annuity rate directly impacted anyone trying to retire on a defined-contribution pension,......pushing back most retirements by at least 5 years ...to achieve the same goal.

Since a majority of private employers have converted to defined-contribution plans as their sole retirement vehicle,.....why hasn't a Government entity established a locked-in annuity rate? ( I know the answer.....private enterprise vs. Gov't regulation,...and the driving principle behind most business transactions: "Let the Buyer Beware....").....

You are absolutely correct in saying our pension payments are part of our wage package. Imagine how terrible it would be if your employer said you would have to rebate back part of your paycheck after you earned it......Long after you earned it.......41 years, in my case....

I think if someone had told me that 41 years ago,...I'd have tried a different occupation.

I have my own opinion ,...that the people who run Wall Street.(..and any other investment scheme..)...do not like the collective power of a defined-benefit pension fund......They much prefer that each individual has their own little pile of money,.....and therefore not much clout on the economic market. If something goes wrong with that little pile,......like an economic downturn, where you lose half of your 401(k) value just prior to retirement,........well,...Tough Luck. Let The Buyer Beware.....There is NO government regulation or entity to re-coup or protect you....

Helluva way to run a national retirement program, don't you think? Especially in a physical labor job,....where the coin you spent was your well-being and strength..........

Social Security invests in..........what? Bonds? open market stocks? What keeps that afloat? Pyramid Scheme? Why haven't we,....as a nation,.....required an expansion of employer payments into Social Security to the point where you can retire solely on that alone? That's a shining example of a defined-benefit pension,....that works well,..if funded properly.
No pie-in-the-sky, carrot-on-a-stick, you'll-be-a-Millionare...Just-Sign-Here.......LET THE BUYER BEWARE "investment" schemes,..........with no guarantees, no oversight, no recourse,...........

Granted,....there are some guys with the luck and discipline to be able to retire on their defined-contribution "pension"...(...BARRING market downturns..)......

But,.....A simple Internet search reveals that MOST of the "investors" in defined-contribution schemes,......don't have,...and WILL NOT have,.........a third of what they'll need in retirement......

And,.....there you have 87 year old insurance salesmen outliving their money,......and seriously considering ......TRUCKING, of all things,.....as a recourse of action to destitution.......
Click to expand...

Annuity rates are closely linked to interest rates. Bull markets usually occur when interest rates are low since investing in stocks typically gives higher returns than can be obtained in interest rate related instruments (annuities/bonds/CD's). You seem to be obsessed with annuities Canary. Broaden you investment horizons a bit and you might be surprised at the potential returns available elsewhere.
 
canaryinthemine said:
Of course the money is invested in index funds.......It's done by professional investing firms that usually are contracted to the Pension funds based on their performance.
The Individual risk,..........and, mind you,...as I said above, the funds are invested by performance-based professionals,.........is spread out over the participants of the entire fund. Very low risk for an individual,....as opposed to someone blundering about the stock market,...convinced he's another Warren Buffet.......

I've had a 401(k) since 1994,......Prior to that , I had the remains of an ESOP from Ryder Systems. Watching the ups and downs of the market over a 25 year period,.....I'm glad I wasn't counting on solely retiring on a combination of 401(k) and Social Security.

Can you explain to me, Brother,....as to why the traditional annuity rate of 5% was lowered to 3.5% during a bull market roughly about 3 years ago? I know that all of the annuity issuers are private entities, unanswerable to any Government agency as far as how they profit,.........but that simple cut in the annuity rate directly impacted anyone trying to retire on a defined-contribution pension,......pushing back most retirements by at least 5 years ...to achieve the same goal.

Since a majority of private employers have converted to defined-contribution plans as their sole retirement vehicle,.....why hasn't a Government entity established a locked-in annuity rate? ( I know the answer.....private enterprise vs. Gov't regulation,...and the driving principle behind most business transactions: "Let the Buyer Beware....").....

You are absolutely correct in saying our pension payments are part of our wage package. Imagine how terrible it would be if your employer said you would have to rebate back part of your paycheck after you earned it......Long after you earned it.......41 years, in my case....

I think if someone had told me that 41 years ago,...I'd have tried a different occupation.

I have my own opinion ,...that the people who run Wall Street.(..and any other investment scheme..)...do not like the collective power of a defined-benefit pension fund......They much prefer that each individual has their own little pile of money,.....and therefore not much clout on the economic market. If something goes wrong with that little pile,......like an economic downturn, where you lose half of your 401(k) value just prior to retirement,........well,...Tough Luck. Let The Buyer Beware.....There is NO government regulation or entity to re-coup or protect you....

Helluva way to run a national retirement program, don't you think? Especially in a physical labor job,....where the coin you spent was your well-being and strength..........

Social Security invests in..........what? Bonds? open market stocks? What keeps that afloat? Pyramid Scheme? Why haven't we,....as a nation,.....required an expansion of employer payments into Social Security to the point where you can retire solely on that alone? That's a shining example of a defined-benefit pension,....that works well,..if funded properly.
No pie-in-the-sky, carrot-on-a-stick, you'll-be-a-Millionare...Just-Sign-Here.......LET THE BUYER BEWARE "investment" schemes,..........with no guarantees, no oversight, no recourse,...........

Granted,....there are some guys with the luck and discipline to be able to retire on their defined-contribution "pension"...(...BARRING market downturns..)......

But,.....A simple Internet search reveals that MOST of the "investors" in defined-contribution schemes,......don't have,...and WILL NOT have,.........a third of what they'll need in retirement......

And,.....there you have 87 year old insurance salesmen outliving their money,......and seriously considering ......TRUCKING, of all things,.....as a recourse of action to destitution.......
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Brother, what about the risk? How or why would an individual(s) take the risk of managing ANOTHER PERSONS MONEY for free? You want to know about the 3.5% return? It is based on risk. You seem to want a very high rate of return on your money but someone else to take the risk, and to do it for free.
 
Triplex said:
Annuity rates are closely linked to interest rates. Bull markets usually occur when interest rates are low since investing in stocks typically gives higher returns than can be obtained in interest rate related instruments (annuities/bonds/CD's). You seem to be obsessed with annuities Canary. Broaden you investment horizons a bit and you might be surprised at the potential returns available elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I am obsessed with annuities, Bro. Triplex.........and the arbitrary and unconscionable fluctuations incurred by people with no accountability to the investors.

As you know,.....I’m sure,....most, if practically not all,....people with a defined- contribution “pension”......elect to use an annuity to prevent tapping into their principal funds.
That should make annuities of paramount importance to pretty much anyone.......

I know very little about the stock and bond trading arena. Obviously, you know far more than I do,.......and I’ll readily admit it......
But,....I think MOST people are as educated in the vagaries of the stock market as I am.......making us...”sheep to be sheared”.......by large corporations.

Do ya trust ‘em? Implicitly?
Or, are you sure you can outwit them at their own game?

Stock trading and futures investing........is gambling,......plain ,pure and simple......
And I have an abhorrent fear of gambling with my hard-earned money.........
 
Homesick said:
Brother, what about the risk? How or why would an individual(s) take the risk of managing ANOTHER PERSONS MONEY for free? You want to know about the 3.5% return? It is based on risk. You seem to want a very high rate of return on your money but someone else to take the risk, and to do it for free.
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Hah! You didn’t read my post very well........

A defined-benefit pension spreads the risk out over decades, and a very large pool of people....

Nobody becomes a......”millionaire”........but nobody loses their shirt and runs out of money.

Working people created that large pool.....years ago, in response to fraudulent “pension” schemes created by employers.....

If you’d like to see a recent example of a fraudulent “pension/investment” scheme, that hurt badly just about all of their employees,.......look at Enron,.......or Color Tile Inc........

You’re trying to encourage me to.......dance on the edge of the volcano,.........and embrace the racy, risky, high-stakes game that is Wall Street’s version of three-card monte...........in the slight chance that I’ll light up all the lights and bells and .......incredibly....become incredibly wealthy.....

That’s........ummm........the same sales pitch they use to get employees to “volunteer” to invest their money in defined-contribution schemes.

You’ll Be A Millionaire!

......(.....see the fine print...).....

Sorry,.......I want my ........”Golden Years”.......to be risk free......

And backed by Government regulation and Insurance....
 
canaryinthemine said:
Hah! You didn’t read my post very well........

A defined-benefit pension spreads the risk out over decades, and a very large pool of people....

Nobody becomes a......”millionaire”........but nobody loses their shirt and runs out of money.

Working people created that large pool.....years ago, in response to fraudulent “pension” schemes created by employers.....

If you’d like to see a recent example of a fraudulent “pension/investment” scheme, that hurt badly just about all of their employees,.......look at Enron,.......or Color Tile Inc........

You’re trying to encourage me to.......dance on the edge of the volcano,.........and embrace the racy, risky, high-stakes game that is Wall Street’s version of three-card monte...........in the slight chance that I’ll light up all the lights and bells and .......incredibly....become incredibly wealthy.....

That’s........ummm........the same sales pitch they use to get employees to “volunteer” to invest their money in defined-contribution schemes.

You’ll Be A Millionaire!

......(.....see the fine print...).....

Sorry,.......I want my ........”Golden Years”.......to be risk free......

And backed by Government regulation and Insurance....
Click to expand...

And just how are those "defined benefit" plans working out for so many in MEPF's these days? They are "insured" by a government agency aren't they?

PS - One of mine has already been cut in half.
 
Triplex said:
And just how are those "defined benefit" plans working out for so many in MEPF's these days? They are "insured" by a government agency aren't they?

PS - One of mine has already been cut in half.
Click to expand...

Yes,.......I know. It’s almost like they’re trying to......stampede ....everyone into defined-contribution funds....by ruining defined-benefit pensions.

They’ve also de-funded PBGI........which is unconciensable,........and, in my eyes, kind of a “smoking gun” as far as how the people who run this country feel about safeguards put in place decades ago......

There are some MEPFs that are doing well......and projected to last for decades ........

And then there are yours and mine........that they seem content to let die on the vine, so to speak......

I don’t know about you,....but twice during the course of my 401(k)....I lost half of the value of my “shares”.........2001 and 2008........and my........investments........never really recovered to the point where I could..........safely.....retire when I did on my MEPF.

When I inquired about that.........I was more or less told there are no guarantees.........Let The Buyer Beware.......

As I said.........Helluva way to run a “pension” plan.......

And........a great way to keep employees working longer.......especially in times of driver shortages........
 
Brother Canary, I think your idea that certain people or groups of people or businesses (I assume CEO's) or all of the above are running the world is a nudge off center. But, if you are correct and a group has gotten together and decided to manipulate people away from their own self interest, then I don't think fighting it is in your best interests. Also, if this group has so much power why don't they simply outlaw or eliminate defined benefit pension plans?
 
Brother Canary, it is my belief that some MEPF work better than others because they have flexibility built into them. My understanding, and I don’t have much personal information, is that some of the western MEPF can change the amount paid to their recipients. Where as our MEPF, like CSPF, have a set amount given to recipients based on years of service; which has much less flexibility.

And MEPF are a relatively new concept. How long have MEPF been around? Where any MEPF around before Consolidated Freight was started? Where MEPF around before ABF was started? And how about UPS package, was there a MEPF around before their creation? What we are seeing with these MEPF may just be the life cycle of the concept.

I hope the MEPF can be saved. I have 17 years into CSPF and I would really like to receive some kind of retirement income for those 17 years. But I as a responsible adult with a family I must be a realist and plan for the future.
 
Homesick said:
Brother Canary, I think your idea that certain people or groups of people or businesses (I assume CEO's) or all of the above are running the world is a nudge off center. But, if you are correct and a group has gotten together and decided to manipulate people away from their own self interest, then I don't think fighting it is in your best interests. Also, if this group has so much power why don't they simply outlaw or eliminate defined benefit pension plans?
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Hah!.....Of course I do, Brother........I'm a charter member of Curmudgeons United,.......and I firmly believe these young, collitch-eddercated, smart-aleck whippersnappers are ruining everything.......

Can't even buy a good buggy whip anymore.........

The driving force behind ALL business activity,...is the quest for more profit. There is absolutely no Altruistic motives there,....unless something can be gained from a public relations stunt showing how....benevolent a business is....

Taking that into account,.....ALL businesses use their clout to ...bend laws, lobby, and influence lawmakers SOLELY for their own benefit,....and if your pension, or paycheck, or family, or vacation, or....any myriad of personal things,.......interferes with the insatiable quest for profit,....well then,.....you'd better keep a firm hand on your wallet flap.....

Surely, you're not suggesting we should just...lay down and take it?

In the forlorn hope that they just might dribble down a few crumbs to the unwashed Yahoos in flyover country?

They ARE eliminating defined-benefit plans. But....remember the "public relations" part. If they did it all at once, it would be way too evident to us working schlubs what they're up to. Better to do it slowly,...and a piece at a time.....That way no outcry from the Illiterate Television Generation.......Slide it right past them.......

I can remember an editorial in the Wall Street Journal 20 years ago, when,...right after the CALPERS defined-benefit California Public Employees Pension System announced that they were actively going to sell or shed stocks of companies that promote anti-Union or anti-Environment activities,.........that said that "Union-held pension plans should NOT have the ability to do SOCIAL ENGINEERING with the stocks they ......OWN(!!!!)"..
At that time, CALPERS held 9 billion dollars worth of publicly-traded stocks on behalf of their Union members........

Do ya think Wall Street would LOVE to break up all these blocks of "unregulated"(...in Wall Street's eyes...)...stocks?

Do ya think they're doing it?

You Betcha!
 
Homesick said:
Brother Canary, it is my belief that some MEPF work better than others because they have flexibility built into them. My understanding, and I don’t have much personal information, is that some of the western MEPF can change the amount paid to their recipients. Where as our MEPF, like CSPF, have a set amount given to recipients based on years of service; which has much less flexibility.

And MEPF are a relatively new concept. How long have MEPF been around? Where any MEPF around before Consolidated Freight was started? Where MEPF around before ABF was started? And how about UPS package, was there a MEPF around before their creation? What we are seeing with these MEPF may just be the life cycle of the concept.

I hope the MEPF can be saved. I have 17 years into CSPF and I would really like to receive some kind of retirement income for those 17 years. But I as a responsible adult with a family I must be a realist and plan for the future.
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I do too, Brother.....And,...I understand your trying to provide by any means available for your future,..and your families' well-being. We're all trying to do that,......because that's what working people do. As much good as we can, for the people important to us.
Makes every responsible working person a Saint,...in my book......

But,....My point is that the....."choices"....provided to working people from the moneyed establishment are....pretty paltry......

There SHOULD be a better way,....more guarantees,....more Cost of Living indexed,........Less worries about...money,...once retired.......

.....than these "investment schemes",....and pie-in-the-sky sales pitches....that they purport to be ..."retirement plans"......

We're Truck Drivers......And damn good ones,.......We shouldn't be trying to convince ourselves we can...."invest"...successfully and compete with the professional money traders.........(...who regard us as Suckers who fall for the sales pitch...)....

THEY ain't producing or DOING anything.........They get their money from attaching onto OUR money,...like a parasite......

There WAS a......."better way"....with defined-benefit pensions.......Do your job well,...don't worry about the market,...put your time in,.....and your "reward"...WAS a GUARANTEED INCOME for life.....(and your spouse...)

They're in the process of ruining that now, Brother,......and hustling us to....QUICKLY invest....HURRY! AS MUCH AS YOU CAN!

I turn a rather jaundiced eye on .....anyone who tells me to.....Hurry and Invest.......
 
Brother I like your posts and I agree with most of it but companies are name only. ABF, ARC BEST, YRC, UPS...etc are not real people. They are name only. They are people who work for the company. And yes I understand that under the law (legally) they are considered entities with rights like people but they don't bleed, hurt or feel. So the profits made by these companies (entities) go to actual living breathing people. Those people are you and me, our coworkers and our families. We should not take the profits from these companies with us when we die. We should leave something for future generations to create families with. And these non flexible MEPF are taking the ship with us when we leave. And one last point brother, if CSPF goes broke and closes up shop in 2025 I will have paid into the MEPF for 25yrs and will get nothing in return. Not one dollar or one cent. No $$$ at all. How cheated will I be then?
 
Homesick said:
Brother I like your posts and I agree with most of it but companies are name only. ABF, ARC BEST, YRC, UPS...etc are not real people. They are name only. They are people who work for the company. And yes I understand that under the law (legally) they are considered entities with rights like people but they don't bleed, hurt or feel. So the profits made by these companies (entities) go to actual living breathing people. Those people are you and me, our coworkers and our families. We should not take the profits from these companies with us when we die. We should leave something for future generations to create families with. And these non flexible MEPF are taking the ship with us when we leave. And one last point brother, if CSPF goes broke and closes up shop in 2025 I will have paid into the MEPF for 25yrs and will get nothing in return. Not one dollar or one cent. No $$$ at all. How cheated will I be then?
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Pretty danged Cheated,....considering you took pension increases in lieu of wages. You could've socked that money under your mattress,.......you could've bought real estate,.......you could've ....invested it into a 401(k) and held your breath for 25 years, hoping you'd get out at least as much as you put in......

But we didn't because,.........for about 50 or so years, defined-benefit MEPFs were the SAFEST thing a working man could do...

At least until the "sharks" started slavering for our money.........
 
canaryinthemine said:
Pretty danged Cheated,....considering you took pension increases in lieu of wages. You could've socked that money under your mattress,.......you could've bought real estate,.......you could've ....invested it into a 401(k) and held your breath for 25 years, hoping you'd get out at least as much as you put in......

But we didn't because,.........for about 50 or so years, defined-benefit MEPFs were the SAFEST thing a working man could do...

At least until the "sharks" started slavering for our money.........
Click to expand...

Brother, most individuals in the CSPF will be cheated when the fund closes its doors. And that is going to hurt but I don't think these MEPF are the safest retirement vehicles. Let me break this 50 years of MEPF down a little to illustrate why I disagree with you.

When MEPF's first came into the union the requirement was10 years of service to be vested. What that means is no one took money out of the MEPF for the first 10 years. Money in but none out.

In the second 10 year span most people where not old enough to receive retirement but where looking into the 20 years and out. So no money out the first 10 years, little money out the second 10 years.

In the 3rd 10 year span more employees started retiring and deregulation occurred (very bad for the trucking industry). This is where the flaws in the MEPF started started showing up. Union companies where leaving the industry and non-union non-MEPF companies started growing in the trucking industry. The number of retiring union employees was increasing because of job loss and a lack of new union jobs.

By the 4th 10 year span (this is where I became employed with ABF and a union member) warnings where starting to appear from CSPF and, I assume, other MEPF's. Employees received letters stating that CSPF was going from 2% to 1%, that UPS was trying to buy its way out of the MEPF's, that ABF was saving money and going to try and buy their way out of the MEPF.

In the 5th 10 year span some MEPF's cut retirement benefits, the retirement age was increased, the 20 year and out was eliminated, buying time in the pension funds (for people who where close to retirement) was eliminated and MEPF default notices where common.

We are currently in the 6th 10 year stretch, at least for CSPF, and the fund managers have announced that CSPF and other MEPF's are no longer viable and are issuing termination notices for these funds. The fund managers, the companies, teamsters, the government, and outside financial and accounting firms are saying this experiment is not working for most MEPF's.

I wish us all good luck in retirement and the best for everyone but life is a hard mistress. And if it was easy everyone would do it.
 
“Trucking is seen as a last resort if people can’t find another job,” said Otto Smith, an admissions representative at TDDS"
(quoted from the posted article.)
Post has strayed into an investment thread.
:17142:
Good talk. But too late for us lowly lumpers in the real world just trying to pay bills.
Hindsight is 20-20.
Nobody was at the door giving anyone an education on what to do with investing.
They wanted freight movers!
Now.
I do hope some of the younger guys are reading our (your) hindsight.
 
mysticobra said:
“Trucking is seen as a last resort if people can’t find another job,” said Otto Smith, an admissions representative at TDDS"
(quoted from the posted article.)
Post has strayed into an investment thread.
:17142:
Good talk. But too late for us lowly lumpers in the real world just trying to pay bills.
Hindsight is 20-20.
Nobody was at the door giving anyone an education on what to do with investing.
They wanted freight movers!
Now.
I do hope some of the younger guys are reading our (your) hindsight.
Click to expand...
I definitely felt this way for years. I'm much more proud of what I do, finally. It took a long time to get here.
 
LTLAnonymous said:
2009. Never forget.

Every March 10th I remember the beginning of my union career with Yellow. And I remember the piece of garbage who lead us into ruin.
Click to expand...
I personally think it was a combination of the worst of both companies ruining each other. Why in the world. And this still boggles my mind. Would the one buy the other? Now I know some of my comments may be taken the wrong way but please don't.
If an 87 year old guy can do it. It's not up to us to judge.
There is no such thing as the "Golden Years".
The government and business wants us perpetually poor.
In retirement or while working.
There is no out.
There is no "Golden parachute".
Just... well I'll stop.
I'm bitter to a point of no return.
But I am gettin my ducks in a row to get out and be perpetually poor. Lol. And not have to look at a lift truck. Skid. Truck. Trailer. Supervisor. (minus wife). I'm done. Stick a fork in me. There will be no sadness. Missing work. Or any of it. The longer I work there the dumber I get. (no thought is put into anything they do. Dock or street. And any good suggestion is set aside. Or hard work.).. And I'm gettin pretty stupid so I need to get my hobo clothes ready.
(jeez. I didn't stop!)
:17142:
(sorry abf guys and women. I don't mean to post other companies incompetence in your forum.
If offended. I apologize now. I have no intent to insult abf employees)
 
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