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ABF | It has to be so, cause RB says so

ABF381

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Super Moderator
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They coulda, shoulda, woulda!

Yup and you say that as a guy who collected $750,000....I have asked you this before with no answer but I will ask you again with a hypothetical....say there is a guy who has been in the fund for 15 years and he is 15 years till he retires with his 30. The fund comes out and says we are going to be insolvent in 10 years...so you think he should get nothing for what he has contributed and nothing for the next ten years as he contributes? Also woulda, coulda, shoulda is a cop out of an excuse if I ever heard one, you are the one who preaches personal responsibility for the uneducated (more likely than not) truck driver but none for our highly educated government....like Mr. Hang belly said maybe a little balance is in order....
 

ABF381

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Super Moderator
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It's not up to the taxpayer, whose average income is less than my full pension to bailout the Teamster funds. The bailouts of GM, Chrysler and the banks should have never happened. The Teamsters should suspend all contractual payments to the pension funds and replace them with a decent 401K plan with investment choices that belong to the employee. The funds can then adjust payouts, spend down whatever money they have and just go away. The IBT has given up on pension funds. The YRC contract is proof of that. Your union has abandoned you. Unionized freight is on life support.
Once again with all your blather and half truths the "average income is less than my full pension" so the great RB how much are these "taxpayers" paying in taxes? Probably nothing or not much...just another wealthy guy trying to make people feel guilty is what I think....the bailouts of the car companies and banks ended up not costing the taxpayers either so that point is moot....you only want me to have a "decent" 401k??? Gosh RB that's tough to take...LMAO. :lmao::lmao::lmao:..but hey you got your three quarter of a million so that's all that counts....
 

Steward of the Rock

Well-Known Member
Could you try just once to address the issue. I don't expect the government to bail out the pension funds. The pension funds should be allowed to fail and go broke. When there is no more money, my checks will stop coming. It's not up to the taxpayer, whose average income is less than my full pension to bailout the Teamster funds. The bailouts of GM, Chrysler and the banks should have never happened. The Teamsters should suspend all contractual payments to the pension funds and replace them with a decent 401K plan with investment choices that belong to the employee. The funds can then adjust payouts, spend down whatever money they have and just go away. The IBT has given up on pension funds. The YRC contract is proof of that. Your union has abandoned you. Unionized freight is on life support.
WOW!! I think I just got scolded by the Blade!! LOL!!! Just to show you how out of touch with modern times you are, the Teamsters already have a 401K for its members to invest in. And with all of the companies that you say should have been allowed to fail, you do realize that’s hundreds of thousands if not millions of people out of work, drawing unemployment, and trying to live on government hand outs until they find more work. If they are able to find more work. It sounds to me like you want to bankrupt America in general. Just because you left your creditors holding your debt and starting over does not mean that is what is best for the rest of the country.
 

Hookman

Just passing thru on my way home
Premium
Once again with all your blather and half truths the "average income is less than my full pension" so the great RB how much are these "taxpayers" paying in taxes? Probably nothing or not much...just another wealthy guy trying to make people feel guilty is what I think....the bailouts of the car companies and banks ended up not costing the taxpayers either so that point is moot....you only want me to have a "decent" 401k??? Gosh RB that's tough to take...LMAO. :lmao::lmao::lmao:..but hey you got your three quarter of a million so that's all that counts....
He is a narcississt who loves to hear himself talk, probably only gets to say Yes Dear at home.
 

Razorblade

Well-Known Member
WOW!! I think I just got scolded by the Blade!! LOL!!! Just to show you how out of touch with modern times you are, the Teamsters already have a 401K for its members to invest in. And with all of the companies that you say should have been allowed to fail, you do realize that’s hundreds of thousands if not millions of people out of work, drawing unemployment, and trying to live on government hand outs until they find more work. If they are able to find more work. It sounds to me like you want to bankrupt America in general. Just because you left your creditors holding your debt and starting over does not mean that is what is best for the rest of the country.
The Teamsters had a 401K through State Street even when I was still working. Here is the question, would ALL your coworkers take full advantage? Of course not. They can't be bothered with that. They need a boat, two leased cars, mortgages and never ask what it costs, just how much a month. Times haven't changed that much in 20 years. The company paying into the 401K instead of the pension fund gives the employee control. Are you afraid that Teamsters can't handle a simple 401K account? Is that why they need promised pensions and government bailouts or as you called it, handouts?
Millions out of work, really? Millions might lose a job but an evolving economy always creates jobs. The real problem is that the masses are letting technology pass them by. They still expect to make big bucks with no skills, no education and no work ethic. General Motors closed the Lordstown assembly plant here a few years ago. The sky did not fall. New businesses have moved in and the economy still carries on. No, it's not the same because $35 an hour and another $25 in benefits to put wheels on Chevies did not prepare the displaced workers for real jobs. The days of getting out of high school and working at the mill for the rest of your life are over. If you are not willing to constantly update and upgrade your skillset, you will be left behind.
 

ABF381

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Super Moderator
Premium
He is a narcississt who loves to hear himself talk, probably only gets to say Yes Dear at home.
Damn it Hook now I feel sorry for him after researching it....lol

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention

 

Hookman

Just passing thru on my way home
Premium
Blade you admire China so much even going to say patriotism in the USA was misplaced why don't you move there. Afterall you did say you were leaving TB a long time ago. Kind of hypocritical that your still here don't you think? China Airlines has great deals on one way tickets right now. :usa::usa2:
 
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Razorblade

Well-Known Member
Once again with all your blather and half truths the "average income is less than my full pension" so the great RB how much are these "taxpayers" paying in taxes? Probably nothing or not much...just another wealthy guy trying to make people feel guilty is what I think....the bailouts of the car companies and banks ended up not costing the taxpayers either so that point is moot....you only want me to have a "decent" 401k??? Gosh RB that's tough to take...LMAO. :lmao::lmao::lmao:..but hey you got your three quarter of a million so that's all that counts....
Do your homework. The federal government lost 11 billion on the "new" GM stock they got as part of the bailout.
 

ABF381

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Super Moderator
Premium
The Teamsters had a 401K through State Street even when I was still working. Here is the question, would ALL your coworkers take full advantage? Of course not. They can't be bothered with that. They need a boat, two leased cars, mortgages and never ask what it costs, just how much a month. Times haven't changed that much in 20 years. The company paying into the 401K instead of the pension fund gives the employee control. Are you afraid that Teamsters can't handle a simple 401K account? Is that why they need promised pensions and government bailouts or as you called it, handouts?
Millions out of work, really? Millions might lose a job but an evolving economy always creates jobs. The real problem is that the masses are letting technology pass them by. They still expect to make big bucks with no skills, no education and no work ethic. General Motors closed the Lordstown assembly plant here a few years ago. The sky did not fall. New businesses have moved in and the economy still carries on. No, it's not the same because $35 an hour and another $25 in benefits to put wheels on Chevies did not prepare the displaced workers for real jobs. The days of getting out of high school and working at the mill for the rest of your life are over. If you are not willing to constantly update and upgrade your skillset, you will be left behind.
The thing that really shines through on your post is you say "would ALL your co-workers take advantage" the answer to that is of course not....that is like saying are all wealthy people wealthy because they earned it...nope a great percentage of wealth is inherited... only an idiot buys a car or any other expensive thing without knowing the cost, but that isn't exclusive to being a Teamster either....I had a salesman at a car dealership many years ago unwilling to give me a price for a car, just a payment... I finally got up and walked out....I wasn't even a Teamster yet, I wonder how he knew to try that trick on me? Lol...who decides how much it is worth to put wheels on a chevy, you? I think that was a negotiated wage just like your wages were....as far as work ethic goes, mine is strong and I can look myself in the mirror, I think when you question others work ethic the problem most likely was yours...
 

ABF381

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Super Moderator
Premium
Do your homework. The federal government lost 11 billion on the "new" GM stock they got as part of the bailout.
Do your homework they made money on the banks...

For the most part, the government was later able to sell those shares of stock for a large profit in the years that followed. In fact, the government took a loss on only two of its 25 largest bailouts.

Still, one thing seems clear: taxpayers came out ahead. In total, $623 billion in taxpayer money was dispersed via bailouts and roughly $698 billion has come back via dividend revenue, interest, fees and asset sales. It doesn't take a math genius to see the bailouts ultimately earned taxpayers more than $75 billion in profit, and that number is still growing.

 

hangbelly

Active Member
Absolutely! Our defense budget is a joke. Half of it is for weapons systems the military doesn't want or need and bases with no strategic value but every congressional district must have one. The United States spends more money defending Europe than the Europeans do.
Corporate welfare includes a farm bill that costs 100 billion a year. Bailouts of GM, Chrysler, the banking industry and private pension funds should never happen.
Thank you. This is the balance I was talking about. And it helps your credibilty. You are a smart guy. You just have blinders on when it comes to corporate America.
 

hangbelly

Active Member
All fair points,RB. But you conveniently forget to mention the abuses of labor that led to where we currently are. The exploitation of workers by the bosses and corporations that brought about this demand for equity and fairness in the labor market and subsequently made America the envy of the developed world. It served us well for generations of Americans since the industrial revolution made skilled labor in demand. And the tragedies of the coal miners' battles with their bosses and their overpriced company stores that made Americans aware and ashamed of what was happening and finally forced Congress to pass labor laws to halt the abuses. There would always have been a Jimmy Hoffa. He was inevitable. He just saw the outrages and decided to stop them. We all know that communism and socialism has created more human misery than it has solved. But the idea of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay is still the holy grail.


I forgot nothing. I have written that America became the world's leading economy by learning to balance capitalism and socialism. Organized union labor is that balance. I also wrote the the pendulum has swung to far and I stand by those statements.
Where we disagree is in the definition of a "fair days work for a fair day pay". I define that as whatever it takes to get the work done by qualified people. Nowhere on these boards have I found a different definition of a fair days pay. All I see is we want more and more is never enough. I reject the idea that the job is worth more because the company makes a profit.
 

hangbelly

Active Member
Because the rest of the industrialized world had either been bombed back to the stone age or captured by the (⊙▃⊙)s or wasn't interested in the war effort...
 

hangbelly

Active Member
I forgot nothing. I have written that America became the world's leading economy by learning to balance capitalism and socialism. Organized union labor is that balance. I also wrote the the pendulum has swung to far and I stand by those statements.

Where we disagree is in the definition of a "fair days work for a fair day pay". I define that as whatever it takes to get the work done by qualified people. Nowhere on these boards have I found a different definition of a fair days pay. All I see is we want more and more is never enough. I reject the idea that the job is worth mor
e because the company makes a profit.
I've never encountered anyone as intransigent as you are about labor, and specifically organized labor, being the cause of all of America's economic ills. You are over-simplifying the problem my friend. So..., what? Whatever it takes to get the job done by qualified people in a free market economy or at the point of a bayonet? You still have not addressed my outrage at journeymen plumbers getting $169.00 / hr to replace a toilet. One absolute about a pendulum. It swings both directions with equality of movement. And a pendulum is inconsequential compared to the sweeping broadsword meat axe of corporate America. Teamsters ain't breaking the country dude. Don't even go there... They have held the line for decades until these are just mediocre jobs now, but still it is not enough apparently. You want to know what your friends in corporate America thinks truck drivers are worth? About $15.00 an hour if they feel generous. . And The non-unions will suffer horribly too once the threat and spectre of the teamsters is removed from the equation, make no mistake about that. Take no solace from it. ALL of us except the anointed and privileged few will suffer equally, I'm outta here. I have to go back to Portland tomorrow morning. I'll check to see what you responded in a couple of days. It might shock you to realize that you and I aren't that far apart on our analysis of this. The end game is cast in stone at this point. We just disagree on the causes.
 
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Steward of the Rock

Well-Known Member
The Teamsters had a 401K through State Street even when I was still working. Here is the question, would ALL your coworkers take full advantage? Of course not. They can't be bothered with that. They need a boat, two leased cars, mortgages and never ask what it costs, just how much a month. Times haven't changed that much in 20 years. The company paying into the 401K instead of the pension fund gives the employee control. Are you afraid that Teamsters can't handle a simple 401K account? Is that why they need promised pensions and government bailouts or as you called it, handouts?
Millions out of work, really? Millions might lose a job but an evolving economy always creates jobs. The real problem is that the masses are letting technology pass them by. They still expect to make big bucks with no skills, no education and no work ethic. General Motors closed the Lordstown assembly plant here a few years ago. The sky did not fall. New businesses have moved in and the economy still carries on. No, it's not the same because $35 an hour and another $25 in benefits to put wheels on Chevies did not prepare the displaced workers for real jobs. The days of getting out of high school and working at the mill for the rest of your life are over. If you are not willing to constantly update and upgrade your skillset, you will be left behind.
Number 1. It is not yours nor my choice if they choose to get in the 401K plan. That is their choice to make as it is available to them.
Number 2. It is their choice on how they spend their money just like it is your choice on how to spend yours.
Numbet 3. The Corona Virus has proven that a large amount of those that lose their job are more than willing to ride out the unemployment pay provided them until it runs out. Especially when the government kicks in an additional $300 to $600 per week on top of the current unemployment rate.
Number 4. The Lordstown assembly plant was a single GM plant that shut down. Some of these people were probably offered employment at other plants if they chose to go. If the “Big Three” all failed, it would be a totally different situation compared to a single plant.
Number 5. Bottom line, it is not yours or my place to tell people how to invest or spend the money they earn. They don’t know you and neither do I. So why should any one take financial advice from a complete stranger?
 

Hookman

Just passing thru on my way home
Premium
I've never encountered anyone as intransigent as you are about labor, and specifically organized labor, being the cause of all of America's economic ills. You are over-simplifying the problem my friend. So, what? Whatever it takes to get the job done by qualified people in a free market economy or at the point of a bayonet? You still have not addressed my outrage at journeymen plumbers getting $169.00 / hr to replace a toilet. Teamsters ain't breaking the country dude. Don't even go there...
He thinks we're greedy bastards for wanting part of the profits a company makes .Blade is correct in saying a company is in business to make a profit but doesn't allow us to earn as much as possible. Guess we're unskilled peasants.
 

Razorblade

Well-Known Member
You are over-simplifying the problem my friend. So..., what? Whatever it takes to get the job done by qualified people in a free market economy . You still have not addressed my outrage at journeymen plumbers getting $169.00 / hr to replace a toilet. One absolute about a pendulum. It swings both directions with equality of movement. And a pendulum is inconsequential compared to the sweeping broadsword meat axe of corporate America. Teamsters ain't breaking the country dude. Don't even go there... They have held the line for decades until these are just mediocre jobs now, but still it is not enough apparently. Y And The non-unions will suffer horribly too once the threat and spectre of the teamsters is removed from the equation, make no mistake about that. Take no solace from it.
Your journeyman plumber at $169 an hour only makes that on a job partially or fully paid for by government. It's called the Davis-Bacon act. A law that requires government contractors to pay "prevailing" wage. Socialist legislation that extorts money from taxpayers. I bet that you would never pay a plumber $169 an hour to replace a toilet because you don't think the job is worth $169 an hour. You tell me what is a plumber worth? Answer the question you have ignored, what is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work? Is all work equal? Should the forklift driving dock worker earn the same hourly wage as the CDL licensed, doubles and triples qualified, hazmat trained driver?

You asked; "You want to know what your friends in corporate America think truck drivers are worth? About $15.00 an hour if they feel generous." You really don't get it. Trucking companies will pay whatever it takes to get drivers in the seat and still make a reasonable profit. Every product from sneakers to cars is worth whatever a willing buyer will pay. If it's overpriced the consumer won't buy it. Labor is no different. Labor is the largest cost of doing business in transportation and it's also the only controllable cost. When the cost of production exceeds the price the consumer will pay, the company goes out of business. 600+ union trucking companies learned that.

If corporate America is so terrible, what would the great Hangbelly replace it with?
 
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