Yellow | un-answered question

[John/nyc]

I'm not out of the industry. Still heavily involved in it. The non-union workers aren't working with a gun to their head, metaphorically or otherwise, they are working hard because they know that being better at their job than the next guy will help them when it comes time to promotion, raises, as well as layoffs. While at a Union shop all you need to do is the bare minimum to keep from getting written up enough times to get terminated. You'll get the raises and avoid the layoffs no matter where you fall in the performance category, strictly based on seniority. If seniorty went to the wayside and all raises and layoffs were based on merit, I'd bet the work ethic at many union barns would change. That says it all right there.

Who would decide what was meritorious? How would merit be measured?

The reason for seniority was low level supervisors playing favorites based on factors not related to the job.

 

[EX396]

Who would decide what was meritorious? How would merit be measured?

The reason for seniority was low level supervisors playing favorites based on factors not related to the job.

It would be a subjective process. However, choosing a panel to perform such annual reviews would help eliminate some of that. Very common process outside of a union environment.

While the reason for creating a seniority based system might have been warranted, it also has some unintended consequences. Ever had to lay off some of your best workers? Those starting a young family and busting their ass to provide, all while you are forced to keep the guy doing the bare minimum just because he's been around longer? What about busting your own ass just to get the same lousy 25cent increase as the other guy who spends half his time in the crapper and the other half planted on the tow motor?

Neither system is perfect. However, I'd prefer to allow my work ethic be the cause of my success or failures.

 

[Free Dumb]

Maybe if you were working, you wouldn't be keeping track of how long people are crapping. A panel performing annual reviews, what a great idea! Works great for A kissers! Just do your best and do not worry about other people.

 

[EX396]

You're right. The only people who get raises in the rest of the world are A kissers. You guys wonder why you're in the position you are...sometimes you really are your own worst enemy. Best of luck to SH, MC, SG, EP, CV and LS you are all some of the hardest working folks I've ever met. It's too bad so many of your Brothers and Sisters will be pointing fingers every where else and not realizing they were a huge part of the problem.

 

[Hooddock]

I think maybe Larry is referring to the guys that fall into the 2.5 bills per hr.,on the dock,and 2 trips to the rail in 12-14 hours,and maybe hooking 3 sets in 8 plus hrs,in the yard.I would be embarrassed.

Then maybe they should take a long hard look in the mirror! The sad thing is they get away with it!Who is at fault??? The ones that do it,or the ones that let them??

 

[EX396]

Both.

It's the entire culture that makes it unique to have happy, productive employees as well as a profitable company. Viking seemed to have it right for many years.

 

[Bart]

Problem is,these numbers have been this way for years at big places like 301,309,511,342,and on,and on.Wish someone still could show me how we compete with the non's,with #'s like this.We are still,our own worst enemy.

The #'s were a lot higher at 509 so they closed it gotta love thier Business Model (IF IT WORKS THEY **** IT UP)

 

[John/nyc]

I'm not out of the industry. Still heavily involved in it. The non-union workers aren't working with a gun to their head, metaphorically or otherwise, they are working hard because they know that being better at their job than the next guy will help them when it comes time to promotion, raises, as well as layoffs. While at a Union shop all you need to do is the bare minimum to keep from getting written up enough times to get terminated. You'll get the raises and avoid the layoffs no matter where you fall in the performance category, strictly based on seniority. If seniorty went to the wayside and all raises and layoffs were based on merit, I'd bet the work ethic at many union barns would change. That says it all right there.

Who would decide what was meritorious? How would merit be measured?

The reason for seniority was low level supervisors playing favorites based on factors not related to the job.

It would be a subjective process. However, choosing a panel to perform such annual reviews would help eliminate some of that. Very common process outside of a union environment.

While the reason for creating a seniority based system might have been warranted, it also has some unintended consequences. Ever had to lay off some of your best workers? Those starting a young family and busting their ass to provide, all while you are forced to keep the guy doing the bare minimum just because he's been around longer? What about busting your own ass just to get the same lousy 25cent increase as the other guy who spends half his time in the crapper and the other half planted on the tow motor?

Neither system is perfect. However, I'd prefer to allow my work ethic be the cause of my success or failures.

Since the choice is between a imperfect but warranted seniority system and an imperfect but undefined merit system, then I'll take the seniority system.

That you describe a merit system as subjective indicates that it is undefined: you must, because you are addressing working conditions in a legal contract, define what is considered meritorious. Further, to who's opinion is the term merit going to be subjected? Or will merit be contractually defined by a list of criteria?

[Would you be so anxious to allow your "work ethic" to cause your success or failure when it is being measured by the subjective opinion of a front line supervisor who's own position is being measured by the production numbers on his shift? Would you mind it if was a time of cutbacks and you were 61 years old with one more year for retirement?]

Seniority is not used in the way you suggest, anyway. If someone is stealing time in the crapper, how does his seniority impact that?

If you are giving the point of view of a supervisor of some kind, then it seems to me that that person is disappointed that s/he was not hired as dictator.

 

[Jay C]

I'm not out of the industry. Still heavily involved in it. The non-union workers aren't working with a gun to their head, metaphorically or otherwise, they are working hard because they know that being better at their job than the next guy will help them when it comes time to promotion, raises, as well as layoffs. While at a Union shop all you need to do is the bare minimum to keep from getting written up enough times to get terminated. You'll get the raises and avoid the layoffs no matter where you fall in the performance category, strictly based on seniority. If seniorty went to the wayside and all raises and layoffs were based on merit, I'd bet the work ethic at many union barns would change. That says it all right there.

You could not be more wrong. There will always be dogs..union or non-union. Union dogs last about as long as non-union dogs. They are not tolerated. You don't get written up for being a dog. There are no company rules dictating how fast you need to go or bills to do an hour. They have a way of dealing with dogs. They follow them..

What to expect when they follow the dog? Euthanasia...that says it all
Unions and the seniority system are all about what is fair

I was once called into the office to explain why it took me 7 minutes to go 1 mile..
did I go faster? no, I logged 5 minutes next time

 

[Mudd Flapp]

As a former Teamster, and someone who is on the outside looking in, I would like to make a couple of points. Companies like Fedex Freight and Conway spent millions of dollars trying to put YRCW out of business by cutting rates below cost. With the corporation of the membership, YRCW, the stock holders, and the banks, YRCW was able to survive. Now you have the banks running the show. The company and the union has made it very clear that there is no plan B. It seems to me a no vote would accomplish what Fedex Freight and Conway couldn't do. On the other hand according to the new concession package YRCW has to start contributing 25% to the pension on June 1, 2011. If that doesn't happen, then it might be time to revaluate the situation. I wish the best of luck to all my friends over at YRCW. TP

You left out abf,upsfrt,they want your frt too.....

 

[Mudd Flapp]

I'm not out of the industry. Still heavily involved in it. The non-union workers aren't working with a gun to their head, metaphorically or otherwise, they are working hard because they know that being better at their job than the next guy will help them when it comes time to promotion, raises, as well as layoffs. While at a Union shop all you need to do is the bare minimum to keep from getting written up enough times to get terminated. You'll get the raises and avoid the layoffs no matter where you fall in the performance category, strictly based on seniority. If seniorty went to the wayside and all raises and layoffs were based on merit, I'd bet the work ethic at many union barns would change. That says it all right there.

Whatever you do,Don't get old,Stay young so you can always be the best.I bet your a real back stabber.

 

[EX396]

Since the choice is between a imperfect but warranted seniority system and an imperfect but undefined merit system, then I'll take the seniority system.

That you describe a merit system as subjective indicates that it is undefined: you must, because you are addressing working conditions in a legal contract, define what is considered meritorious. Further, to who's opinion is the term merit going to be subjected? Or will merit be contractually defined by a list of criteria?

[Would you be so anxious to allow your "work ethic" to cause your success or failure when it is being measured by the subjective opinion of a front line supervisor who's own position is being measured by the production numbers on his shift? Would you mind it if was a time of cutbacks and you were 61 years old with one more year for retirement?]

Seniority is not used in the way you suggest, anyway. If someone is stealing time in the crapper, how does his seniority impact that?

If you are giving the point of view of a supervisor of some kind, then it seems to me that that person is disappointed that s/he was not hired as dictator.

You seem to be the only one presenting an opposing view in a logical and respectful manner. Kudos.

I see your point regarding 61yo and 1 year away. I'd hope in my little imaginary perfect world that my value to my company has been and continues to be evident so that I don't have such concerns. I'd like to believe that if you are valuable to your employer they'll keep you, if you're not, they won't.

I have developed my point of view based on my experience as a teamster dock worker (Local 396 in the late 80's) as well as a supervisor in the same barn. I was young, starting a family with a mortgage at the bottom of the seniority list being told to slow down by my "peers". As a supervisor I had to lay off the two best workers I ever had just before Christmas, just because they were the newist. Meanwhile stuck with a worthless slug, just because he'd been employed longer than I'd been alive.

There's a reason I've been self employed for the last 12-ish years....I like to be responsible for my own successes and failures.

 

[EX396]

Whatever you do,Don't get old,Stay young so you can always be the best.I bet your a real back stabber.

Fortunately, I am getting older. I know one particular 64 year old driver that can't work as fast as he used to, but he certainly works every bit as hard and smarter than most. He may not be the best, but I guarantee he will always be valuable to his employer until he decides he's had enough. It's the way he's wired. Unfortunately, not many are of the same mindset.

Back stabber? You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

 

[albag]

Problem is,these numbers have been this way for years at big places like 301,309,511,342,and on,and on.Wish someone still could show me how we compete with the non's,with #'s like this.We are still,our own worst enemy.

Maybe we should send everyone out to FK Industries. Pud and Otter would be able to whip some of the deadbeats into shape. And after they graduate we could all go to the nearest Gyros Connection for a "Super Ted Gyros Platter"!

 

[truckchick1]

Fortunately, I am getting older. I know one particular 64 year old driver that can't work as fast as he used to, but he certainly works every bit as hard and smarter than most. He may not be the best, but I guarantee he will always be valuable to his employer until he decides he's had enough. It's the way he's wired. Unfortunately, not many are of the same mindset.

Back stabber? You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

Most of the older guys know how to do their job smarter. My husband could have retired last month. He did not because I am not working steady and we need the health care. You younger guys need to stop crying for us to go away. We were there once but we have worked our time and will decide when we will retire.

 

[longblade]

that was the dream of many chick. unfortunatly that dream has now gone away for most of us.

 

[EX396]

You younger guys need to stop crying for us to go away. We were there once but we have worked our time and will decide when we will retire.

I'm a younger guy (42) and I'm not crying for you to go away. As long as you are valuable to your employer I hope you do stay around.

The concern is the "we worked our time" mentality. You got paid when you worked your time. It isn't time for a free ride 'till the milk runs dry. Find another capacity to be of value to your employer. Safety, trainer, dispatch IMO could always use somebody who's been on the other side of the mic., just a couple of examples.

Getting a free ride just because you've done "your time" is what happens AFTER you retire.

 

[Jay C]

I'm a younger guy (42) and I'm not crying for you to go away. As long as you are valuable to your employer I hope you do stay around.

The concern is the "we worked our time" mentality. You got paid when you worked your time. It isn't time for a free ride 'till the milk runs dry. Find another capacity to be of value to your employer. Safety, trainer, dispatch IMO could always use somebody who's been on the other side of the mic., just a couple of examples.

Getting a free ride just because you've done "your time" is what happens AFTER you retire.

Find another capacity to be of value to your employer?

 

[EX396]

That's an option should you be concerned that your current position doesn't allow you to remain competitive on merit.

If you do P&D but can't quite get it done like you used to. Why not line haul? If you don't like the idea of being away from home, then how about a shuttle driver?

If you can't keep up on the dock, good supervisors aren't exactly commonplace. Use your freight knowledge, your maturity and your ability to lead others.

Or....keep doing what your doing, but you shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accomodate you.