I keep reading that we need a union to get better wages, benefits, pension, job protection. Can anyone give me a guarantee in writing wha my wages or benefits will be if I vote for the union? Can anyone give me a guarantee in writing what my pension will be if I vote the union in? My pension benefit has not been negatively impacted in my 20 years with O/UPGF. Can the teamster represented employee's in the central states pension fund say the same? In the last campaign the teamsters respresented numerous terminals and attended numerous negotiating sessions with O. Yet there was never a contact? Do you think the union might be willing to sign a contract for less than what I have now to get a contract? I go to the boards for union companies and I read post after post about how poorly they are treated. I read posts from union members about lazy BA's or BA's that kiss the companies a$$. Why would I want to take a chance that the guy that would represent me would be one of these guys? The original question was "what are some good reasons not to have the union at UPSF?" My question is what WRITTEN guarantee's can the teamsters give us that would be a good reason to have them. The answer is simple. There is not one single guarantee they can put in writing.... it's all open for negotiation. We could end up with less!
TForce | what are some good reasons not to have the union at UPSF?
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Budman,
As is the case in life, nothing is perfect or really even close to perfect. There are BA's who aren't nearly as aggressive as some members think they should be. There are members who would complain no matter how good they have it....it's human nature....we all fall short in some way or another. UPSF would be put into the NMFA....the Freight Contract....that is a given and here's why....the Teamsters would never let a Company the size of UPSF have a White Paper Contract....which is a deal that's less than the NMFA. Only a few smaller regionals have that type of deal. The Teamsters would be, in affect, cutting their own throats to allow anything less for UPSF. It would give UPSF an unfair advantage and encourage them to undercut rates since they'd be paying less in wages and benefits.
You're asking for a written guarantee and that's not the order of the way things like this happen, for legal reasons. Your Contract will be your legal 'in writing' agreement and if it's not followed you will have recourse......not just the old "If you don't like it, quit" line. What you seek isn't available.....first you have to join and then you'll get a Contract. The Union would not and can not do one single thing for you until you join through an election or if enough terminals show support UPS might just allow it to go forward without an election. But, the cart won't go before the horse....there is one way to do it and that's to join. The negotiating and all the rest of the process can't begin until you join. That's the law.
As is the case in life, nothing is perfect or really even close to perfect. There are BA's who aren't nearly as aggressive as some members think they should be. There are members who would complain no matter how good they have it....it's human nature....we all fall short in some way or another. UPSF would be put into the NMFA....the Freight Contract....that is a given and here's why....the Teamsters would never let a Company the size of UPSF have a White Paper Contract....which is a deal that's less than the NMFA. Only a few smaller regionals have that type of deal. The Teamsters would be, in affect, cutting their own throats to allow anything less for UPSF. It would give UPSF an unfair advantage and encourage them to undercut rates since they'd be paying less in wages and benefits.
You're asking for a written guarantee and that's not the order of the way things like this happen, for legal reasons. Your Contract will be your legal 'in writing' agreement and if it's not followed you will have recourse......not just the old "If you don't like it, quit" line. What you seek isn't available.....first you have to join and then you'll get a Contract. The Union would not and can not do one single thing for you until you join through an election or if enough terminals show support UPS might just allow it to go forward without an election. But, the cart won't go before the horse....there is one way to do it and that's to join. The negotiating and all the rest of the process can't begin until you join. That's the law.
Dude
you wrote
The Teamsters would be, in affect, cutting their own throats to allow anything less for UPSF. It would give UPSF an unfair advantage and encourage them to undercut rates since they'd be paying less in wages and benefits.
So are you saying that by being a part of the union our company would have to raise their price, become less competetive and poentially lose jobs?
Based on your comments about how it works it almost sounds like you want me to sign the financing paperwork on a new $30,000 car without telling me what kind of a car you are going to give me after I sign? When I get that "legal in writing" contract, what if I don't like it. And you didn't answer the question about the changes to my pension and the central states pension. Mine has a record of consistent improvements. Central states does not. I am more confident in mine than I am yours based on ACTUAL history.
you wrote
The Teamsters would be, in affect, cutting their own throats to allow anything less for UPSF. It would give UPSF an unfair advantage and encourage them to undercut rates since they'd be paying less in wages and benefits.
So are you saying that by being a part of the union our company would have to raise their price, become less competetive and poentially lose jobs?
Based on your comments about how it works it almost sounds like you want me to sign the financing paperwork on a new $30,000 car without telling me what kind of a car you are going to give me after I sign? When I get that "legal in writing" contract, what if I don't like it. And you didn't answer the question about the changes to my pension and the central states pension. Mine has a record of consistent improvements. Central states does not. I am more confident in mine than I am yours based on ACTUAL history.
Budman,
No, I'm not saying that they'd have to raise their rates.....I'm saying that if they join the Teamsters, to allow them to pay less in wages and benefits would also pave the way for them to have an unfair advantage over other Teamster Companies. That is why most of us who have been around the Teamsters for years and have paid attention to the way things happen think that UPSF would go right into the NMFA. The you'd be guaranteed to be paid for everything we're paid for...no more, no less. That's a guarantee. Think of it like this...if the Teamsters allowed YellowRoadway to pay less than ABF and contribute less than ABF to the pension/benefits, ABF might not last too long...see my point? If you don't like the protections and monetary minimums of the NMFA, I don't know what to tell you. It's the top of class in the LTL sector.
As far as the CSPF goes, as the largest fund among the many different Teamster funds, it took the biggest hit after the economy deflated in 2001 and legally cuts had to be made. Do any of us like it? Nope, but when you know that legally the Board has to do things to keep things fluent so the cuts, though very unpopular, were necessary. It's easy for a member who is upset over this to throw stones and declare that it didn't have to happen, but I've yet to see this argument proven. The skyrocketing costs of healthcare don't help either. I really don't know much about your pension as most of the UPSF guys claim they don't really understand just how it works. Our employers are also ontractually obligated to contribute every week. I hope it never happens, but your's could probably be changed if your employer wanted to change it. None of us know what the future holds. I do think that the working people deserve a god pension, Union or not. I hope everybody's pensions are there for them when their retirement time comes.
No, I'm not saying that they'd have to raise their rates.....I'm saying that if they join the Teamsters, to allow them to pay less in wages and benefits would also pave the way for them to have an unfair advantage over other Teamster Companies. That is why most of us who have been around the Teamsters for years and have paid attention to the way things happen think that UPSF would go right into the NMFA. The you'd be guaranteed to be paid for everything we're paid for...no more, no less. That's a guarantee. Think of it like this...if the Teamsters allowed YellowRoadway to pay less than ABF and contribute less than ABF to the pension/benefits, ABF might not last too long...see my point? If you don't like the protections and monetary minimums of the NMFA, I don't know what to tell you. It's the top of class in the LTL sector.
As far as the CSPF goes, as the largest fund among the many different Teamster funds, it took the biggest hit after the economy deflated in 2001 and legally cuts had to be made. Do any of us like it? Nope, but when you know that legally the Board has to do things to keep things fluent so the cuts, though very unpopular, were necessary. It's easy for a member who is upset over this to throw stones and declare that it didn't have to happen, but I've yet to see this argument proven. The skyrocketing costs of healthcare don't help either. I really don't know much about your pension as most of the UPSF guys claim they don't really understand just how it works. Our employers are also ontractually obligated to contribute every week. I hope it never happens, but your's could probably be changed if your employer wanted to change it. None of us know what the future holds. I do think that the working people deserve a god pension, Union or not. I hope everybody's pensions are there for them when their retirement time comes.
screwy louiey
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Haven't read all the threads on this post so here is my two bits worth and I'm moving on.
The previous time the union tried to organize OVNT there was a threat to the employees that they would shut the doors down & close the place or that employee would be fired for just cause as they would like to put it. Which made it a difficult decision when it came to thinking about your livllylhood family and all.
This time its a different scenario without the threats to yourself family friends and co-workers. There is no threat from management and UPS isn't fighting the issue , either you want it or not.
What it boils down to at the end is the
"holy brail": pension when you decide to hang it up, shut it down , apply those air brakes one last time. We all give ourselves to the carrier or company we work for proudly. We put in our labor and strife physically wise and get nothing in return but sore backs, bad knees, poor health and diet, mashed hands & fingers, hairline fracutures on foot, exposure to god knows what.
Those of us who been around this industry for awhile know how much our bodies have taken a toll from this and you can be Teamster proud or non union proud what matters most is when its all over that you'll be compensated for the blood sweat you gave and be rewarded for the fruits of your labor with a nice cash award from your pension.
Any one can drive a truck but the LTL and package delivery are both totally different animals that isn't cut out for everyone.
In closing:It aint easy being who we are in this industry and we deserve every penny of it for all those years we put ourself behind that wheel
OK it was a nickles worth but I am done with it
See ya.....
The previous time the union tried to organize OVNT there was a threat to the employees that they would shut the doors down & close the place or that employee would be fired for just cause as they would like to put it. Which made it a difficult decision when it came to thinking about your livllylhood family and all.
This time its a different scenario without the threats to yourself family friends and co-workers. There is no threat from management and UPS isn't fighting the issue , either you want it or not.
What it boils down to at the end is the
"holy brail": pension when you decide to hang it up, shut it down , apply those air brakes one last time. We all give ourselves to the carrier or company we work for proudly. We put in our labor and strife physically wise and get nothing in return but sore backs, bad knees, poor health and diet, mashed hands & fingers, hairline fracutures on foot, exposure to god knows what.
Those of us who been around this industry for awhile know how much our bodies have taken a toll from this and you can be Teamster proud or non union proud what matters most is when its all over that you'll be compensated for the blood sweat you gave and be rewarded for the fruits of your labor with a nice cash award from your pension.
Any one can drive a truck but the LTL and package delivery are both totally different animals that isn't cut out for everyone.
In closing:It aint easy being who we are in this industry and we deserve every penny of it for all those years we put ourself behind that wheel
OK it was a nickles worth but I am done with it
See ya.....BusterNite
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Contract or not. Union or not. NO guarantees at any company in the world!stldude44 said:
Dude,
I work to support my family and will seriously consider all options. But I have to know what the options are. You keep saying this is a guarantee, thats a guarantee. If it's guaranteed why can't someone guarantee it in writing? As to the pension, ours was a part of the same market as CSPF, but we didn't have a cut in benefits. Every time I hear anyone talk about the funding issues with the CSPF I hear it blamed on market crash. However, I belive the financial reports on this fund show that it was in trouble before the market crash. Over the next several years more and more of the baby boomers are going to reaching retirement age. Every single pension fund is nothinng more than some sort of a pyramid scheme. The problem with the CSPF is that the pyramid has slowly been turning wrong side up. As more retire it will get worse. THis will create more cuts, longer years to wor etc. Do you really think that is right for the guys that have worked under the assumption that they could retire in a couple of years. And by the way, I talked to one of our retiree's last night. He is going to have BETTER medical, vision which he couldn't get before, and dental which he couldn't get before and it will cost him about half of what it did. More benefits and half the cost. Again, our complete compensation package gets better, can you prove the same for the teamsters? How much does medical, dental, and vision cost a retireee?
I work to support my family and will seriously consider all options. But I have to know what the options are. You keep saying this is a guarantee, thats a guarantee. If it's guaranteed why can't someone guarantee it in writing? As to the pension, ours was a part of the same market as CSPF, but we didn't have a cut in benefits. Every time I hear anyone talk about the funding issues with the CSPF I hear it blamed on market crash. However, I belive the financial reports on this fund show that it was in trouble before the market crash. Over the next several years more and more of the baby boomers are going to reaching retirement age. Every single pension fund is nothinng more than some sort of a pyramid scheme. The problem with the CSPF is that the pyramid has slowly been turning wrong side up. As more retire it will get worse. THis will create more cuts, longer years to wor etc. Do you really think that is right for the guys that have worked under the assumption that they could retire in a couple of years. And by the way, I talked to one of our retiree's last night. He is going to have BETTER medical, vision which he couldn't get before, and dental which he couldn't get before and it will cost him about half of what it did. More benefits and half the cost. Again, our complete compensation package gets better, can you prove the same for the teamsters? How much does medical, dental, and vision cost a retireee?
Budman,
I just lost a long reply to your post, but I'll answer you as best I can.
I don't recall making claims about guarantees other than I, and most all Teamsters, see you guys slipping right into the National Master Freight Agreement as you are a freight operation. Once that happens you would enjoy the guarantees of that. From what I've read here it would be a nice improvement in the way your roadmen get paid for delay/breakdown/snow/accidents and some other time you guys put in and should be paid for. Not to mention the grievance process and much more.
I have said that I don't know anyone who is happy about the changes that were put into place in the CSPF on Oct. 19, 2003. They will mean I will have to work at least until age 57 instead of 55 unless I want to purchase outside insurance. I'll be 52 next month so I've got some time to make that decision. The cost of retiree insurance went up from $200.00 to $400.00 per month. I don't know anyone who thinks it's right, but we're not high finance experts either, and probably have no real idea about healthcare costs other than to agree that they're going right through the roof.
I think that if your buddy's insurance is going down in cost and up in coverage it's great. It's also pretty amazing because it's the only such incident I've heard of which actually improves anything in this area other than very marginal improvements. I'm glad for him though, as I'm sure he worked his butt off and deserves it. However, as our retirement terms were changed, so could yours be changed. Let's all hope any changes will be for the better.
I just lost a long reply to your post, but I'll answer you as best I can.
I don't recall making claims about guarantees other than I, and most all Teamsters, see you guys slipping right into the National Master Freight Agreement as you are a freight operation. Once that happens you would enjoy the guarantees of that. From what I've read here it would be a nice improvement in the way your roadmen get paid for delay/breakdown/snow/accidents and some other time you guys put in and should be paid for. Not to mention the grievance process and much more.
I have said that I don't know anyone who is happy about the changes that were put into place in the CSPF on Oct. 19, 2003. They will mean I will have to work at least until age 57 instead of 55 unless I want to purchase outside insurance. I'll be 52 next month so I've got some time to make that decision. The cost of retiree insurance went up from $200.00 to $400.00 per month. I don't know anyone who thinks it's right, but we're not high finance experts either, and probably have no real idea about healthcare costs other than to agree that they're going right through the roof.
I think that if your buddy's insurance is going down in cost and up in coverage it's great. It's also pretty amazing because it's the only such incident I've heard of which actually improves anything in this area other than very marginal improvements. I'm glad for him though, as I'm sure he worked his butt off and deserves it. However, as our retirement terms were changed, so could yours be changed. Let's all hope any changes will be for the better.
mossbackman
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Another reason we need a Union in todays world is many of us work for corporations like UPS. Those corporations are driven by PROFITS, for the stockholders and the insanely paid CEO's. Profits at all costs !Not many corporations give a lick about the employees and thats why we do need a Union.
Greezy Trucker
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mossbackman said:
AH come now they ALWAYS have the best interest of the employee in mind......... And would do nothing to take anything away from us or our families............. But hey we can handle these big fellars because you can see how well we can communicate our feelings and respect others on these boards...... OK Im done holding my breath.......
CS H&W:
Under 57 - $510.00 single - $1020.00 Spouse
Age 57 $255.00 $510.00 Spouse
Age 58 $230.00 $460.00 Spouse
Age 59 $205.00 $410.00 Spouse
Age 60 $180.00 $360.00 Spouse
Age 61 $155.00 $310.00 Spouse
Age 62+ $130.00 $260.00 Spouse
Monthly cost with at least 30 year pension.
In future years, the monthly contribution for Retiree Health Plan participants will increase an additional $50.00 per person each year ($100.00 for member and spouse) unless the amount is changed by the Trustees.
Effective January 1, 2004.
Under 57 - $510.00 single - $1020.00 Spouse
Age 57 $255.00 $510.00 Spouse
Age 58 $230.00 $460.00 Spouse
Age 59 $205.00 $410.00 Spouse
Age 60 $180.00 $360.00 Spouse
Age 61 $155.00 $310.00 Spouse
Age 62+ $130.00 $260.00 Spouse
Monthly cost with at least 30 year pension.
In future years, the monthly contribution for Retiree Health Plan participants will increase an additional $50.00 per person each year ($100.00 for member and spouse) unless the amount is changed by the Trustees.
Effective January 1, 2004.
Teamster251
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budman said:
Budman just so you realize, the CSPF supplies H&W to it members. But not all areas of the country have their benefits supplied by thier respective pension funds.
Some Teamsters funds supply them, but many are supplied by the local in which you serve your time.
Example LOCAL 653 S. Easton Mass, if you have 30 years in the local your H&W benefits are free at any age. You may not have 30 years in the New England pension fund, your funds may be somewhere else or spread out, but you will recieve free care.
Other locals give a discounted rate to retirees depending on age, years served, time with the local, married, single etc.
My point is this, basing everything, info, scenarios, etc on the CSPF is misleading. Right now from what I'm seeing and reading in my Private Messages is that many terminals that want to go union aren't even in the CSPF areas.
It's nice to have all the info, as long as the info you have isn't misleading.
National Heatlh Care is coming so this point maybe mute.
My 2 Cents T251
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All I can say is, there is NO guarantee on pay, benefits, etc. Whenever some "rep" tells you he'll "guarantee", ask for it in writing. You won't get it. Union or not, the company is not going to change the employee rules for working there. Everything else has to be negotiated.
mossbackman
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Ya but ya worked for overnite wages so with all due respect yer an IdiotProud Overniter said:1. Again, I am not in a management, supervisory, etc position with Overnite...I have the ability to think totally on my own
2. If UPS has such good management, why do you need a union? Either its good or its not?
3. Not nervous at all. I totally trust the democratic process as long as it is fairly carried out without intimidation, violence, threats, etc.
4. Even though I do not work in the field, I feel my job security is a lot better by working for a non union carrier vs a union carrier. Even you can not honestly argue against that point considering the long line of unionized carriers that have fallen throught the years vs the non union carriers. After all, UPS must have seen something good in OVNT to make them spend 1.25 billion to purchase us.
5. I see how poorly other carriers have operated under the NMFA...again, if its so good, why has a national carrier not been organized in over 30 plus years? The only way Yellow/Roadway has made it this long is thanks to all the other union carriers going under.....thats a pretty poor way to grow market, waiting for your fellow union carriers to collapse instead of growing market through true competition...
Again, who pays for your union salary? The evil corporation? Stock holders? Nope, the customer. It makes no difference how great your union contract is, how awesome the pension is, if the customer is giving their freight to your competition because they can offer flexibility, better service standards, etc....then you can toss that contract, just as CFers, etc have had to do.....
Face it, UPS bought Overnite to compete wiht Fed Ex in the freight business and offer another service to the shipping public under the UPS umbrella. They looked at 16 carriers. They see how well Fed Ex has operated as a non union carrier. Why in the heck would they just sit back and let the teamstuhs come into Overnite? To pay 3 guys to do the job 1 guy can do?
Just look at the history of the teamsters, the numerous teamster carriers shuttered through the years, the corruption, the violence, and I go back to my original question....hows that union contract working out at CF and Preston?
There you go The man likes the company he works for and you gotta go and call him an Idiot
Now thats the TEAMSTER way isn't it.
He made a choice, I made a choice and you made a choice. If you don't like your choice it's your right to make another one, but don't fault a man for showing pride in his company.:smilie_132:
The man likes the company he works for and you gotta go and call him an Idiot Now thats the TEAMSTER way isn't it. He made a choice, I made a choice and you made a choice. If you don't like your choice it's your right to make another one, but don't fault a man for showing pride in his company.:smilie_132:Teamster251
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dvr49 said:There you go
Who's calling who an idiot?
Waht does this post have anything to do with what's being discussed here?
Teamster251
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HEAVY-METAL said:
What does this post have anything to do with what is being disscused here?