That is exactly what should happen here too...they can split whatever is left after they make the pension withdrawal payments.....
Yellow | Woah not so fast investors, docket #1833
- Thread starter ABF381
- Start date
The hypocrisy I'm referring to is your characterization of investors "who should have know better" vs. you giving a pass to workers "who should have known better." If you think investors should get nothing because "they should have known better", then what's wrong with workers losing out since "they should have known better?"
They did lose out as I already said.....as the other poster pointed out investing is risky....I'm more interested how you come to the conclusion that "owners are not getting bailed out'" when the reason they say they don't owe withdrawal penalties is because the government already paid that money....if the government hadn't bailed out the funds the withdrawal liabilities would be so great that there would be nothing left....
The only point I was trying to make was to take issue with your somewhat condescending attitude toward investors, i.e., stating that they should not get any benefit and in effect take their lumps because they "should have known better". I feel that they should no more take their lumps for that reason than the workers who also "should have known better" as you put it. That distinction that you originally made is what I find hypocritical. If you feel that investors - which can include numerous individuals who may have thought Yellow was a decent investment - should suck it up because they should have known better, than my rebuttal to that is that workers should also suck it up since they too should have known better. Now don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I would hope that all workers get made whole as much as possible. I just object to your characterization of investors as somehow unworthy to recoup anything in the bankruptcy. Obviously loads of people got hurt with this whole mess. Let's see how all the legal aspects play out without pitting one group against another.
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Trip you are wrong on the stock splits at Yellow. It was the exact opposite. To use your example of five one dollar bills for one five dollar bill. It was one five dollar bill for one one dollar bill. They did REVERSE splits. That is why those who held Yellow paper got screwed. And I was one of them. Swap five shares each worth one dollar, to get one share worth one dollar.Stop deflecting. Owners aren't getting bailed out by the government, the pension funds are. And you haven't responded to my main premise - if shareholders should have known better, what about worker who stayed and should have known better? Not much hypocrisy here is there?
Wrong.
Sorry Al but you are 100% wrong. Stock splits do absolutely nothing to change the value of your holdings. Whether the share price increases or decreases after the split is a completely different matter but the split itself does not change the value of your holdings. It's exactly how I explained it, for example, 100 shares at $1 each is the same value as 1 share at $100. That's what a reverse split does.
If it wasn’t for the union allowing only 25% paid into pension and all the givebacks by the employees Yrc/Yellow would have been out of business many years ago. So yes the pension fund should be paid first….
One last time Al, the reverse split itself did nothing to change the value of your holdings of Yellow stock. Splits, either forward or reverse do absolutely nothing to change the value of anyone's holdings in a particular stock. The stock value changed because of buying and selling on the open market after a split, not because of the split itself. Please take a little time to educate yourself, check with Mr. Google or some other financial source if you still doubt what I'm saying here.
.The pension fund received the payments contractually agreed to by the membership. Woulda, shoulda, coulda doesn't factor in at all. What does your crtystal ball say the winning lottery numbers are this week?
This talk about investors should have known better past performance is not an guarantee of future performance blah blah blah... is exactly right. Investing is a calculated risk. So is a pension. There is zero guarantee that you will receive the benefit amount the fund says you will get for any period of time.
I don’t have the winning lottery numbers but I do know Yellow is 50 million behind on their pension payments….The pension fund received the payments contractually agreed to by the membership. Woulda, shoulda, coulda doesn't factor in at all. What does your crtystal ball say the winning lottery numbers are this week?
Just throwing this out there..... Wasn't there a snap back provision whereas if the company was sold off.... I realize this is a bankruptcy..... Pensions would be made whole?
I do remember the wages were part of it but we all know that is not going to happen.
I don't know.... That's why I am asking.
There's definitely going to be a profit made here by the investors.
I do remember the wages were part of it but we all know that is not going to happen.
I don't know.... That's why I am asking.
There's definitely going to be a profit made here by the investors.
I am certain many wish they could take that statement to the bank.
$2,000,000 invested in Yellow stock at the peak (2004-2005?) isn't worth $20 today. That's not hyperbole.
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Not that I don't believe you, but can you provide a link to substantiate that?
Where do you folks come with this idea that investors are somehow going to profit at the expense of the workers? Isn't it a fact that any worker at any time could have purchased Yellow shares and become an "investor" and also be able to share in the huge "profits" you talk about?
Tri and 381 bring up some very good points and both have valid comments. One thing that makes the whole situation very different is the word investors. Yes there are risk with investing. When Yellow first went public (IPO) investors bought stock with hopes of a return on their investment. As stocks trade hands its an auction with buyers and sellers mainly based on news and sentiment. Their are several intuitions which made large purchases, recently, mostly a hedge (bet) with hopes of a profitable outcome. Most of what is going on now is not long term investors trading it is day traders and swing traders trying to make a fast buck on rumor and news. Research exposed one individual who was removed from the forums for just that. As far as pension fund goes YRC made a commitment to pay a determined amount for each employee, as well as a withdraw liability. CSPF is a debtor as Yellow owes them money, what amount will be determined. Unfortunately the employee's were given stock options, exact amount I cant remember. With all the reverse splits (1 for 25 then 1 for 300) if my memory serves me the share price has to get to over $3,000 per share for that option to be exercised. That was offered in a debt for equity swap. Employee's given equity in company. So all employees were essentially investors and will never receive a dime for that. The employees should receive money owed, Warn act, vacation and sick pay and pension money first. Unfortunately I have said several times Yellow in some way shape or form will survive this and still be around. Remember Yellow was a holding company and the subsidiaries loaned it money, Holland, New Penn and Roadway. When its all done and the shells are moved around see what is left, remember they filled 11 reorganization.
Typed the words right out of my finger tips.Where do you folks come with this idea that investors are somehow going to profit at the expense of the workers? Isn't it a fact that any worker at any time could have purchased Yellow shares and become an "investor" and also be able to share in the huge "profits" you talk about?
I don’t know how to send the whole story, but it was on freightwaves. It was Health & welfare along with pensionI thought the delayed/deferred payments for July pre-shutdown were eventually paid. Am I wrong about that?