ABF | 401K or Pension in next contract?

[TurnCoat]

Muler, What did the company offer in the previous proposal? Can you dig up a link to it? I understand after the deep recession the company has reconsidered how low their cash reserves would have become after making a buyout deal with Central States. Perhaps, the rejection by the members saved the company? But, I doubt ABF can save the pension fund in the long term.

Link to previous post that kinda got off topic, but an interesting discussion.
.

http://www.truckingboards.com/forum/abf-freight-system/79405-rumor-has-16.html#post1002638

 

[Docker]

Muler, What did the company offer in the previous proposal? Can you dig up a link to it? I understand after the deep recession the company has reconsidered how low their cash reserves would have become after making a buyout deal with Central States. Perhaps, the rejection by the members saved the company? But, I doubt ABF can save the pension fund in the long term.

Link to previous post that kinda got off topic, but an interesting discussion.
.

http://www.truckingboards.com/forum/abf-freight-system/79405-rumor-has-16.html#post1002638

There was never actually a legal proposal to speak of...there was just that letter that Bob Davidson circulated in June 2007 to all Teamster employees saying that members should dump their Teamster pensions for a company 401(k).

 

[Muler]

Muler, What did the company offer in the previous proposal? Can you dig up a link to it? I understand after the deep recession the company has reconsidered how low their cash reserves would have become after making a buyout deal with Central States. Perhaps, the rejection by the members saved the company? But, I doubt ABF can save the pension fund in the long term.

Link to previous post that kinda got off topic, but an interesting discussion.
.

http://www.truckingboards.com/forum/abf-freight-system/79405-rumor-has-16.html#post1002638

The proposal was behind the glass. It was never sent to the ABF Teamsters. The IBT came out with a posting at all ABF locations stating that the letter must come down. Then they threatened a Labor Board charge for ABF trying to deal directly with the bargaining unit. YOUR BROTHER ALWAYS!

 

[u4M2w8a]

last contract all abf ever said on their quarterly conference calls was a hybrid 401k, and the savings from the pension plan to a 401k would make the bank note on the withdraw money. Last conference call about a month ago the last question was were they planning to buy out of the pension fund in this contract? Judys answer was no they were waiting on some things to happen in congress and other things that are in the works. I believe their waiting for a answer back from the PBGC on central states request for a " Direct Attribution Plan"

 

[TurnCoat]

I remember reading that they contemplated the idea when UPS bought out, but later realized it would have probably been a mistake. The industry has definitely made a lot of changes in the recent 5 years. In a buyout, those near retirement, or even those that are vested in the fund with 5 or more years, would still get a defined benefit at age 62 from the fund? What I mean is if I quit right now, and not another dime is paid on me I would draw about $2600/mo., but we all know that could change with one letter from the fund. When ABF agrees to put $X into the fund to buy out, we would be locked at a certain rate, in my case say around $2000/mo., I know I would take a haircut on my pension. Then ABF would invest a lump sum, say around $2500 per year of service, I have paid into the fund, into my 401k as a starter savings, so I start out with about $62,000 that they match dollar for dollar up to 6% of my income as long as they show a profit. They do want to show a profit to the shareholders by the way. In this scenario, I draw a defined benefit from the fund, guaranteed by the government in the buyout, and have a nice lump of savings that belongs to me, that I can leave to my kids or grandkids if I don't spend it all. How much I spend will depend on how they behave! If my wife outlives me, she would get a reduced pre-determined pension payment, and she would have the 401k money? I think the IBT, CSPF, ABF, and importantly the ABF membership, all have an obligation to find some realistic solution to this problem. I hope it at least comes to the bargaining table. Ya'll be safe

 

[Docker]

I remember reading that they contemplated the idea when UPS bought out, but later realized it would have probably been a mistake. The industry has definitely made a lot of changes in the recent 5 years. In a buyout, those near retirement, or even those that are vested in the fund with 5 or more years, would still get a defined benefit at age 62 from the fund? What I mean is if I quit right now, and not another dime is paid on me I would draw about $2600/mo., but we all know that could change with one letter from the fund. When ABF agrees to put $X into the fund to buy out, we would be locked at a certain rate, in my case say around $2000/mo., I know I would take a haircut on my pension. Then ABF would invest a lump sum, say around $2500 per year of service, I have paid into the fund, into my 401k as a starter savings, so I start out with about $62,000 that they match dollar for dollar up to 6% of my income as long as they show a profit. They do want to show a profit to the shareholders by the way. In this scenario, I draw a defined benefit from the fund, guaranteed by the government in the buyout, and have a nice lump of savings that belongs to me, that I can leave to my kids or grandkids if I don't spend it all. How much I spend will depend on how they behave! If my wife outlives me, she would get a reduced pre-determined pension payment, and she would have the 401k money? I think the IBT, CSPF, ABF, and importantly the ABF membership, all have an obligation to find some realistic solution to this problem. I hope it at least comes to the bargaining table. Ya'll be safe

What is the company's 401k proposal? I would love to hear it since you seem to know all about the details of something that hasn't even been proposed yet.

 

[Muler]

I remember reading that they contemplated the idea when UPS bought out, but later realized it would have probably been a mistake. The industry has definitely made a lot of changes in the recent 5 years. In a buyout, those near retirement, or even those that are vested in the fund with 5 or more years, would still get a defined benefit at age 62 from the fund? What I mean is if I quit right now, and not another dime is paid on me I would draw about $2600/mo., but we all know that could change with one letter from the fund. When ABF agrees to put $X into the fund to buy out, we would be locked at a certain rate, in my case say around $2000/mo., I know I would take a haircut on my pension. Then ABF would invest a lump sum, say around $2500 per year of service, I have paid into the fund, into my 401k as a starter savings, so I start out with about $62,000 that they match dollar for dollar up to 6% of my income as long as they show a profit. They do want to show a profit to the shareholders by the way. In this scenario, I draw a defined benefit from the fund, guaranteed by the government in the buyout, and have a nice lump of savings that belongs to me, that I can leave to my kids or grandkids if I don't spend it all. How much I spend will depend on how they behave! If my wife outlives me, she would get a reduced pre-determined pension payment, and she would have the 401k money? I think the IBT, CSPF, ABF, and importantly the ABF membership, all have an obligation to find some realistic solution to this problem. I hope it at least comes to the bargaining table. Ya'll be safe

You just said something interesting. ABF realized it would have been a mistake to have paid out of CSPF. So now we know they are capable of making mistakes.
You keep kicking around a 6% 401k match. When did ABF tell you this is what they would like to propose?
Where did they make this proposal.
Now if you look at what has happened since ABF ask us to leave CSPF. They would have taken a roughly $1,000,000,000,.00 loan and we all know where that would have gotten us during the GREATEST RECESSION SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION!
WE WOULD TODAY BE IN AS BAD IF NOT WORSE CONDITION THAN yrc!
That's right ABF for the most part would at the very least be crippled. We the ABF Teamsters saved ABF from themselves.
And we will do it again when the opportunity comes up again. Here in Cleveland every company that controlled the pension plans of the workers left them high and dry when push came to shove. If we choose to leave CSPF we will then fall under different pension rules that apply to single employer plans. No we don't jump at things fast here at ABF. You talk of things that don't exist as of this time.

WE SAVED ABF BEFORE AND WE WILL DO IT AGAIN!

YOUR BROTHER ALWAYS!

 

[TurnCoat]

last contract all abf ever said on their quarterly conference calls was a hybrid 401k, and the savings from the pension plan to a 401k would make the bank note on the withdraw money. Last conference call about a month ago the last question was were they planning to buy out of the pension fund in this contract? Judys answer was no they were waiting on some things to happen in congress and other things that are in the works. I believe their waiting for a answer back from the PBGC on central states request for a " Direct Attribution Plan"

Thanks for the insight! Sounds like they are waiting for some things to flesh out...Gonna take an "act of Congress" to get this thing fixed! Wow, that really makes me feel better :rolleyes:

 

[Docker]

last contract all abf ever said on their quarterly conference calls was a hybrid 401k, and the savings from the pension plan to a 401k would make the bank note on the withdraw money. Last conference call about a month ago the last question was were they planning to buy out of the pension fund in this contract? Judys answer was no they were waiting on some things to happen in congress and other things that are in the works. I believe their waiting for a answer back from the PBGC on central states request for a " Direct Attribution Plan"

The changes began last summer when a New England Teamsters plan started this process that involved the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. (PBGC), the government agency that insures most pensions. The New England Teamsters plan agreed with PBGC to permit contributing trucking company employers to withdraw from the plan and re-enter the multi-employer pension plan under what is known as a “Direct Attribution Plan.”

Such a plan offers three benefits, Aitken said:
1-Current withdrawal liability is greatly reduced;
2-Employers are not liability for liability attributable to other employers; and
3-the New England plan agreed to reduce benefit accruals to the employers’ contribution level to fully fund the plan, with projections updated annually.

New approach to Teamsters trucking companies

 

[TurnCoat]

I was just sharing some basic scenarios. I know many companies have matched their employees dollar for dollar up to 6% of their gross income. You can save as much as you want, but the company matches you up to 6%. This is before tax savings. You will pay regular taxes as you take distributions after retirement. You will also pay taxes on your pension income, same difference there. All the years paid into the fund on us should pay us a defined pension, although it will have to be adjusted to keep the plan solvent. The company would need to offer me something to jumpstart the 401K since I am nearing retirement. I am sorry junior employees, with less than 5 years vested in the CSPF may have to start from scratch, but they would control their retirement account completely, and would never have to open a sad letter from CSPF. Just an idea how it could work.

 

[TurnCoat]

What is the company's 401k proposal? I would love to hear it since you seem to know all about the details of something that hasn't even been proposed yet.

See post #10, just thinking at the keyboard.

 

[TurnCoat]

Just trying to learn something here guys, thanks for all the insight. I think we all agree something's gotta give. If all interested parties can give some, perhaps we can get something that will benefit all involved. But, I'm for shared sacrifice, if that can be a reality.

 

[Docker]

The company would need to offer me something to jumpstart the 401K since I am nearing retirement. I am sorry junior employees, with less than 5 years vested in the CSPF may have to start from scratch, but they would control their retirement account completely, and would never have to open a sad letter from CSPF. Just an idea how it could work.

How would you feel if the junior man said sorry to all of us nearing retirement and you will have to take those twenty years plus and throw them to the wind and start from scratch because the future welfare of the pension is more important? That would strike a nerve with you...wouldn't it? So...what do you think that the first thought of a junior man is when he reads a post like yours? Right off the bat...without even looking for other possible solutions..you jump at the one that throws them to the wolves.

IMO...this quote sums it up in a nutshell on what you are all about...correct me if I have the wrong opinion of you:

The company would need to offer me something to jumpstart the 401K since I am nearing retirement.

Now to me...this sentence just sounds so self centered!

 

[Docker]

I was just sharing some basic scenarios. I know many companies have matched their employees dollar for dollar up to 6% of their gross income. You can save as much as you want, but the company matches you up to 6%. This is before tax savings. You will pay regular taxes as you take distributions after retirement. You will also pay taxes on your pension income, same difference there. All the years paid into the fund on us should pay us a defined pension, although it will have to be adjusted to keep the plan solvent. The company would need to offer me something to jumpstart the 401K since I am nearing retirement. I am sorry junior employees, with less than 5 years vested in the CSPF may have to start from scratch, but they would control their retirement account completely, and would never have to open a sad letter from CSPF. Just an idea how it could work.

You also try and make it look like that a 401k is infallible but we know differently...don't we. You support and try the 401k without pointing out the facts and problems so I will just point out a few of them for you:

401k Plan Flaw

The success of the 401k plan in the late 1990s, as well as pressure to increase corporate earnings, resulted in the decline of traditional pension plans. According to information published by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, the number of pension plan participants stood at 16.2 million in 2005. That's a decrease of 27% since the 1988 high of 22.2 million participants.
One possible explanation for the decline in the number of pension plans offered by companies could be the replacement of traditional pensions with 401k plans. On the one hand, this can be a tempting offer to the next generation of employees in America, since today's plans allow them to have better control over their retirement destiny.

On the other hand, these employees now have their entire retirement nest egg at risk. Employees with a large number of years until retirement will frequently assume more risk in their 401k portfolio. This combination, along with a declining stock market, brought a lot of attention to the flaw in thinking that employees could successfully act as their own pension fund managers.
One measure of this problem is seen in the decline of mutual fund values. In the fourth quarter of 2008 alone, mutual funds lost nearly $600 billion in value. Major stock market indexes such as the S&P 500 also experienced significant setbacks that year, falling nearly 40%.

Read on...please:

401k Problems

 

[TurnCoat]

Now to me...this sentence just sounds so self centered!

Dude, I have watched the fund go backwards for years, the junior guy may possibly have no pension to speak of, if any, if his company goes out of business trying to support the thing, he has no good job either, and us old guys will get out of the defunct fund what the government says we get, and we all know that's going to be, about 25%, of your original claim, maybe. It really matters not your opinion of me. I am just saying hopefully, the company can offer US an attractive alternative in the future.

 

[TurnCoat]

You also try and make it look like that a 401k is infallible but we know differently...don't we. You support and try the 401k without pointing out the facts and problems so I will just point out a few of them for you:


Read on...please:

401k Problems

The pension funds did not do so well with their investing either, during the recession, or over the boom times for that matter. Therefore, they are going broke. Sad, but true.
That is the nature of investing.

 

[TurnCoat]

Finally, don't panic when your portfolio experiences a loss. If you have a sound financial plan, and a diversified investment portfolio, then you're on solid ground. It's possible to survive a recession since they typically last only a couple of years. This is a relatively short timeframe if you have ten years or more before you need to touch your retirement funds.

The last paragraph of the article you cited Docker. The market has came back since it was published. My pension benefits have not kept pace with my mutual funds. The proof is in the pudding. Those who may be intimidated about saving and investing, well, they make wake up one day BROKE! My investing plan is so sophisticated a 5th grader could understand it, but I average 12-18% growth each year and it all came back after the recession, and I made money investing in the down market. This isn't hard! Us that are full-time make enough money to save quite a bit and if the company would match our efforts I think we would be better off, have a more secure job and retirement. That's good for me, and for you, and the generations that follow us in this industry. Think about it, and Ya'll be safe out there

 

[woodennose]

Docker, I dont think Turncoat sounded self centered. Ive been a Teamster for only 19 years, and Im only 42 so I have a while to go before I can even think of retireing. I personaly would like to hear all kinds of options regarding my pension. To be honest, I have been thinking alot about an ABF 401k as long as I was in control of my money, not ABF and certainly not the Teamsters. I am very concerened about the people who are collecting their pensions now and would like to make sure somehow everybody is taking care of, But it cant keep going the way it has been or we all are going to get the short end of the stick.

How would you feel if the junior man said sorry to all of us nearing retirement and you will have to take those twenty years plus and throw them to the wind and start from scratch because the future welfare of the pension is more important? That would strike a nerve with you...wouldn't it? So...what do you think that the first thought of a junior man is when he reads a post like yours? Right off the bat...without even looking for other possible solutions..you jump at the one that throws them to the wolves.

IMO...this quote sums it up in a nutshell on what you are all about...correct me if I have the wrong opinion of you:

Now to me...this sentence just sounds so self centered!

 

[TurnCoat]

Thanks woodennose! Docker and Muler enjoy giving me the business, but I respect their opinions. I'm glad to be with ABF now, and think they may able able to come up with something we can all survive with. Company, Union and Central States. It's a different culture over here. Proud company! They don't have all that debt and Wall Street bankers running their company. I would rather see ABF come up with an equitable buyout, they could afford, rather than continue to put money up a dying hog's.....you get the idea! Apparently ABF is waiting to see what Congress is going to do, so it looks like it may not be a part of the contract negotiations. If that is the case ABF will be asked to increase the pension payments yet again. What some don't realize is that thing gets so weak the government steps in, everybody's going to get cut, SIGNIFICANTLY! A government guarantee, is a guarantee that you are SCREWED! And if you don't have some personal savings to fall back on, your lifestyle WILL change. Think about it, an Ya'll Be Safe!

 

[Muler]

I heard the new ABF pension proposal is this. They will collect all the soda cans from the machines after they are emptied. And to really boost their contributions they will give us 10 on every $100.00 they get from the sales from the vending machines. Now who needs CSPF? YOUR BUYING MY LUNCH FROM THE MACHINES BROTHER ALWAYS! NEWS FLASHHHHHH! The price of aluminum has drop and the ABF pension Plan has applied for relief. The ballots will arrive written on toilet paper. They will be hand delivered by the DEFINED PENSION PLANS RETIRED ABF EXECUTIVES ON THE ABC PRIVATE JETS!