Anti-union propaganda in LA?

Freightpunk,
The way these Boards work is that people post their opinions and not everybody agrees with a given opinion. While we welcome reasonable discussion and debate, we ask that people refrain from name calling and personal attacks. Have you read the rules? You'll make a much better case if you debate the issues and not get too caught up in pissing contests. This is good advice....I suggest you think it over.
 
Hockey Puck said:
"...Shifter Knob -

I haven't had a chance to respond to your response to my post that got you a tad excited...

...You responded well to my "If it is that bad, just leave". My guess is from your remarks that you are willing to admit that every once in a while a company that has been around for 90 years like Oak Harbor has made some good changes and good decisions. What bothers folks in management is that at times, no matter what changes they enact, it is never enough for some people. It seems like the only thing they know is how to criticize. Thats what wears down folks like David VP.

They are doing their best, attempting to survive, making the best decisions they can, yet it isn't enough. After a while, you feel like Jerry Quarry fighting Ali. Just how many shots can you take?

The problem that companies like Oak Harbor face is that if they allow their cost structure to get too far out of line vs. their competition, they can't make money. The fly-by-night bottom feeders that hurt you for a little while and then go away aren't the problem. Those guys are pretty much gone, or don't have a real impact. The real problems are the large, well run, technologically sophisticated non-union carriers that hold a significant cost advantage to union, or partially union, companies. These are quality carriers, who provide good service, yet they have a net cost advantage of 5% to 10%. They can charge less than organized carriers, yet still make a decent return. That's why carriers are resistant to unionization.

There is no doubt that unionized jobs in this industry pay well. But also recognize that if a carrier can't make a decent enough return to reinvest in their comapny, they won't make it. That is the situation Oak harbor is faced with.

David VP would probably love to give eveyone in his company a raise. But the market, and the prevailing pricing, is driven by forces outside of his company that he has no control over. The only thing he can really control is the cost structure within his company and that's what he is trying to do..."

Well, let's examine some of your presumptions. First of all, I'm the first one to praise my company when they do something right, and the first one to slam them when they screw up.

It's called feedback. And I'm sure that David and Ed can handle it. And if they can't? Is that our fault?

If they are hearing more negatives than positives, perhaps they need to examine the issues being raised a bit more closely instead of sticking Band-Aid solutions on them. Talk is great, two-way communication is great, but action is what gets the job done and the problems resolved. And by the way...? I'm not saying they aren't in every case not fixing the problems, but sometimes one feels as if a major calamity has to happen before action gets taken to resolve an issue or problem. And that certainly is not just this company, I am sure. These are clearly universal sentiments, if what I read in other forums is to be believed.

You next assumption is that they are doing their best. I don't agree with that, and I'm sure I am not alone on that. However, I am always willing to give them the fair opportunity to do their best, and simply ask the same back from them.

You last assumption is a bit more complicated, but let me try and answer it in one good shot:

A.) The bottom-feeders are not gone. As some drop by the wayside, others appear to take their places. There is always a niche for cheap carriers: it's those shippers looking get something for nothing. They want premium service for the cheapest rates, and they never find it. But the good carriers, and I do count Oak Harbor amongst them, can and do suffer because of that market effect.

B.) I've made this point before, and it's one I stick by: the union is a market force. An example? Fed-Ex Freight is a big non-union LTL company. Why does Fed-Ex's wages, benefits and work rules so closely mirror those of union carriers? Simple: to keep the demand for unionization low.

So the mere existence of a union presence keeps wages and benefits comparable to union carriers, hence making the "union effect" a verifiable market force. You can see this in other industries where unionization levels are high. And this effect keeps wages and benefits relatively comparable across a broad sampling of carriers.

A case in point is Oak Harbor. There are roughly 550 Teamster employees at Oak Harbor, roughly half of the front-line employees in this company. The company mirrors on the non-union side what is negotiated on the union side, and in some cases, has been forced into paying more just to keep certain terminals non-union. Remember Oakland, David? The same with benefits.

The union doesn't negotiate for the non-union employees. if the union side asks for a bigger increase than what the company wants to pay, they could in theory simply take it from the non-union employee's pay package. They won't, for obvious reasons. But won't and can't are two different concepts, you see?

C.) I would point out that Oak Harbor has grown for years and years with a mostly Teamster workforce, and every five years has doubled in size. Only until we moved into California and Nevada have we seen a significant growth in the non-union sector of the company. When David's dad Henry came to us in '85 and asked us for concessions to help him survive, we gave him those concessions. And his company did grow. So it's not like the union employees just take and take and take. Noe one, not the union and not the union employees, are looking to push this company or any company, for that matter, off of a cliff.

This company does make money, and they are very profitable. Being a union or even a partially union company doesn't necessarily alter that fact. It does make for happier employees and a more stable workforce, though.

A case in point would be to compare ABF and Consolidated Freightways. Two national LTL companies, both unionized and members of the National Master Freight Agreement. One is now bankrupt and the other is not only surviving, but profiting and competing on a national and regional level. So with all things being equal (i.e. labor costs, etc being comparable), what made one go out of business and one survive and prosper?

Could the answer be... management? Good and bad?

What else could it be?

Sure, cost structure is very important for any company in a competitive environment, and labor is one of if not the biggest costs for any business. However, industry analysts point to the driver shortage, and have made no bones about it: until wages and benefits rise enough to make the job more appealing, the driver shortage will continue for the foreseeable future. That is across the board. Truckload and LTL. You ask any company or any local union across this country if they are hurting for drivers, and you will hear "yes" far more than you will hear "no". When even the best companies, union and non-union, are having a difficult time recruiting qualified and experienced drivers, those cost differences you mentioned level out, because everyone is in the same boat.

It's not just costs that cause companies to resist unionization, either. It's a perceived loss of control and flexibility more than anything.

I've seen management get quite snitty about it. I saw an e-mail memo from our VP of Operations here at Oak Harbor dated 11-04-05 after our last contract was ratified. He said in it, and I quote;

"Those of you with non-union employees, please make sure you talk to each member of your staff and inform them we will be increasing their hourly wage to the same levels as the union employees ($.60/hr.) effective November 1st, 2005...

...We were concerned in 2005 that our non-union staff were being unduly delayed in a wage increase because of the unnecessarily protracted negotiation with the Teamster's Union, so we made sure all of the non-union staff received their wage increase ($.50/hr.) in April with a promised bonus check of $500...

Now, as David and Ed have committed to our non-union staff, we want to make sure that their loyalty and support is rewarded and we are giving them an additional hourly increase to ensure their hourly wage and compensation package continues to be better than those we have to negotiate with..."

Of course, their wage and compensation package is not better, but exactly the same. The non-union employees get fully-paid health and welfare and a 401(k) pension plan with a company contribution. But their health insurance is nowhere near as good as either the Washington or Oregon Teamster plans in a side-by-side comparison, but costs pretty close to the same. The company pension plan isn't bad for what it is, but it still lacks compared to the union pension on many levels. Note that they were given a $.50/hr. raise until the union finished negotiating a higher wage, and then they bumped up the non-union wages to compensate. Market forces at work.

I do love the sentiment expressed at the end of the message, though. Very touching that they think so highly of those they have to negotiate with, huh? Especially since it was the company that drug the negotiations out so long. Had they just agreed to our demands, it all would have been over with very quickly... LOL!

Deregulation has visited upon us all an brave new world of deep discounting and unchecked competition, and that has been at least as hurtful as it has been helpful. It did help to make the industry more efficient in many ways, but it also caused stagnating wages, an environment that encouraged unsafe and sometimes illegal practices, and a higher emphasis on profits than on service.

But I do see the pendulum swinging back the other way a bit, and I am encouraged by that...
 
Shifterknob -

I went to the Dark Tower link you posted...kinda creepy! Hope you aren't trying to tell us something.......

OK, so you opened the comparison door with your ABF/CF example, so I'm jumping right in.

No doubt, CF was badly managed, ABF is extremely well run. But take a look at the list of the top 27 LTL carriers in America today based upon annual revenue listed in Transport Topics a couple of weeks ago. Here it goes, with the largest one listed first;

1. YRC World Wide (union)
2. Fed Ex Freight
3. Con-Way Freight
4. UPS Freight
5. ABF (union)
6. Estes
7. Watkins (now Fed Ex too)
8. SCS (Saia)
9. Old Dominion
10. Averitt
11. R and L
12. Southeastern
13. Lyden
14. Transforce Income Fund (Canadian)
15. AAA Cooper
16. CenTra (Central Transport)
17. Central Freight Lines
18. Vitran
19. New England Motor Express (Machinists Union)
20. Roadrunner Dawes
21. Forward Air
22. Pitt Ohio
23. A. Duie Pyle
24. PJAX
25. Milan
26. Wilson
27. Daylight

Gee, only 3 are organized, 2 are Teamster. Now I'm figuring that you have been around for a while, and you obviously are an intellegent guy since you write very well, so I'm sure you can visualize what this list looked like 10 or 15 years ago. I can, and it sure didn't look like this. There were sure alot more Teamster carriers listed then than there are now. In fact, over the last 10-15 years, virtually all of the growth in the LTL game has been by the non-union carriers, while the old line Teamster carriers have gone under, one by one, leaving this list today.

Now, you just can't tell me it is all because of "Bad Management". All of the non-union companies, who have grown over this time period, are the only ones with good management, that made all the good decisions, while all of the Teamster carriers that are now in the graveyard were all universally badly managed. That arguement holds no water with me.

It is time to face facts. Our industry features operating margins like the supermarket industry. Slim and none. Labor expense accounts for 50%-65% of an LTL carrier's total cost. If you have a 5% to 10% cost advantage in labor costs (including benefits, where the real difference lies union vs. nonunion), that is huge. Come on, which one of these LTL carriers pays OT? At best, nonunion guys get it after 45 plus hours a week, not like union carriers with OT after 8 hours.

Comments?
 
I always get a kick out of how union members try to recruit new members by explaining how much better they are paid.

Then they explain how the compay pays for the benefits in full.

Then the super pension plan.

Finally, the clearly defined work rules.

These are all 100% accurate and provide the union member with valid reasons to be part of an organized work force.

Then the other breath they say that they can be just as cost effective as a union free company.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too guys.

You do very well for yourselves, but you do put the company at a disadvantage when it comes to pricing business.

That is a simple fact.
 
[

Purely laughable my sensitive friend.

WORK BETTER,WORK UNION.
The middle class is being sucked up
by your types, I hope you enjoy
yourself.How come you wont say where you work?
 
freightpunk said:
[

Purely laughable my sensitive friend.

WORK BETTER,WORK UNION.
The middle class is being sucked up
by your types, I hope you enjoy
yourself.How come you wont say where you work?


For the most part you are correct. You will make more money, usually for less work under a union conract.

However, then you cannot say that union carriers can compete price wise with the union free outfits.
 
This is off the subject somewhat/okay a lot but has merit

As we grow up, we learn that even the one person that wasn't supposed to
ever let you down probably will. You will have your heart broken probably
more than once and it's harder every time. You'll break hearts too, so
remember how it felt when yours was broken. You'll fight with your best
friend. You'll blame a new love for things an old one did. You'll cry
because time is passing too fast, and you'll eventually lose someone you
love. So take too many pictures, laugh too much, and love like you've
never been hurt because every sixty seconds you spend upset is a minute
of happiness you'll never get back. So send this to all of your friends
(and me) in the next 5 minutes and a miracle will happen tonight

Don't be afraid that your life will end,
be afraid that it will never begin.
~anonymous~
 
Friend of the frog said:
For the most part you are correct. You will make more money, usually for less work under a union conract.

However, then you cannot say that union carriers can compete price wise with the union free outfits.

Less work? you truly are great man!
I work just as hard if not harder then the next guy.And guess what,union carriers don't have a problem with pricing,you just need to become a better salesman maybe.You expect us just to lie down and take what the company wants to pay us and not hold them accountable for their actions don't you?
I love that right wing Limbaugh is lord attitude.God Bless you.
 
truckenjoe said:
This is off the subject somewhat/okay a lot but has merit

As we grow up, we learn that even the one person that wasn't supposed to
ever let you down probably will. You will have your heart broken probably
more than once and it's harder every time. You'll break hearts too, so
remember how it felt when yours was broken. You'll fight with your best
friend. You'll blame a new love for things an old one did. You'll cry
because time is passing too fast, and you'll eventually lose someone you
love. So take too many pictures, laugh too much, and love like you've
never been hurt because every sixty seconds you spend upset is a minute
of happiness you'll never get back. So send this to all of your friends
(and me) in the next 5 minutes and a miracle will happen tonight

Don't be afraid that your life will end,
be afraid that it will never begin.
~anonymous~
Very True.
 
Far from sensitive, trust me on that.

Less work may not have been the proper phrasing, but stricter work rules normally works in favor of the employee.

For example, a line haul drvier under NMFA rules cannot touch freight, correct ??

So a line haul driver working under NMFA rules will sit and wait for his load, while a someone not under such restrictions might go and help load his truck. Or might even load it by himself.

Again, if you need me to repeat this slowly for you, please let me know.

Explain how if you make more per hour, have better benefits, do not contribute to your benefits, have a better pension, that the compant pays for 100%, does this not cost more for labor at a union carrier.

If the labor costs more, meaning that you earn more than your non union counterpart, how can you say that a non union carrier does not have a price advantage over a union contract ???

If you can explain that to me with getting beligerant and calling me names and criticizing the job that I prefer I will bow to your superior knowledge.
 
Get your story straight,were not NMFA!
And yes our guys do touch freight.All the
master freight guys I know do as well.
Whats your deal with labor costs? that
seems to be all you care about.Look, it's obvious your a saleman,I'm a teamster,I
believe that all workers deserve to paid
a good wage while spending 90 percent
of their life busting their butt for a company.
I'm sorry that you disagree but in not so many words your calling teamsters lazy.
If it was'nt for us,your young children
would be down their humping freight
for 4.00 an hour on a 20hr shift!
And who are you to determine an
employees worth in wages in benefits?
Oak harbor does'nt have a problem
with the balance of labor costs because
check this,the teamsters medical were
under is cheaper with better coverage
than the company and that's a fact.
I would'nt deny that a union carrier is
possibly more expensive but you get what
you pay for,want low turnover and dedicated
employees? union carrier.Want bad driving
record and crappy attendance? non-union,
of course that goes for both sides because no one is perfect.I understand you dont
like unions,I sure dont hate salesmen!
You guys are out their working just as hard
as the rest of us,just dont think that your
one step above anyone else in this racket
because we are all vital.
 
I would'nt deny that a union carrier is
possibly more expensive


Thanks

Now to clear up a couple of other points you made.

1. I do not think Teamsters are lazy. People are people. There are lazy drviers, there are hard working drivers. There are more hard working drivers, than lazy ones. There are more hard working Teamsters than lazy ones. I am sure that it is in the same proportion with the union sector as opposed to the non union sector. Like I said PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.
There are just as many lazt supervisors, sales reps and terminal managers. That life.

2. I also believe that every one deserves the wages they are paid. Most of us deserve more. The only difference, and this is my opinion, is that I believe that those decsions should be made on merit, not senority. Just because man number one has been working at a company longer than man number two does not mean he should earn more. A person should be paid on what value they bring to the company. That in a nutshell is the BIGGEST problem I have with organized labor. Not the only, but surely the biggest.

3. I think the P&D driver is the most vital person in our industry. They are in front of our customers say in and day out. Sometimes two and three times in a day. A good driver will make an account, a bad driver will destroy it.

Maybe these ideas seem very radical, right wing, Rush Limbauhish to you, but I think they are very close to what you think as well. I also think that just about every hardworking man out there has similar feelings. We just need to learn to express them more effectively.
 
Good exchange between shifterknob and FF.

Shifterknob, you still haven't responded to my list of the 27 largest LTL carriers in the country and the fact that only 2 of them are organized by the Teamsters and the third (NEMF) has what is generally refered to as a "user friendly" union contract.

It is a darn good thing that linehaul drivers touch freight at Oak Harbor. That flexibility is required from teamster carriers in order to compete with the non-union folks. Perhaps that is one of the contributing factors to why Oak Harbor is still in biz after 90 years???

In the Midwest, however, NMFA carriers don't have this luxury. There are still a bunch of silly work rules in the Heartland that contribute greatly to the 5%-10% cost advantage the non-unions have. For instance, we still have the rule that line haul drivers never touch a piece of freight at their origin and/or destination docks, and in some cases, never touch a piece of freight, anywhere, anytime. Line haul drivers can't drop, hook, back a trailer into a dock, etc. etc. tons of time wasted as they watch someone else do this work as they wait on the clock.

In addition, FF is dead right when he says people are people. A small percentage of them are lazy and non-productive, union and non-union. The big problem is, at a non-union carrier, a non-productive person is shown the door. At a union company, a non-productive person is required, by Federal Law, to be supported 100% by their Union, to the detriment of the overall performance of the company. The union might not want to protect and fight for them, but they don't have a choice.

This really hurts. Remember, we are talking supermarket margins here. Being force to employ weak players, while paying them top dollar, is troubling, especially when there are other hard working drivers out there working at non-union carriers that would love to get into a Teamster barn.

I think a hard working Teamster driver is worth every penny they get. The concept of protecting the weak sisters is what burns me.
 
Hockey Puck said:
Good exchange between shifterknob and FF.

Shifterknob, you still haven't responded to my list of the 27 largest LTL carriers in the country and the fact that only 2 of them are organized by the Teamsters and the third (NEMF) has what is generally refered to as a "user friendly" union contract.

It is a darn good thing that linehaul drivers touch freight at Oak Harbor. That flexibility is required from teamster carriers in order to compete with the non-union folks. Perhaps that is one of the contributing factors to why Oak Harbor is still in biz after 90 years???

In the Midwest, however, NMFA carriers don't have this luxury. There are still a bunch of silly work rules in the Heartland that contribute greatly to the 5%-10% cost advantage the non-unions have. For instance, we still have the rule that line haul drivers never touch a piece of freight at their origin and/or destination docks, and in some cases, never touch a piece of freight, anywhere, anytime. Line haul drivers can't drop, hook, back a trailer into a dock, etc. etc. tons of time wasted as they watch someone else do this work as they wait on the clock.

In addition, FF is dead right when he says people are people. A small percentage of them are lazy and non-productive, union and non-union. The big problem is, at a non-union carrier, a non-productive person is shown the door. At a union company, a non-productive person is required, by Federal Law, to be supported 100% by their Union, to the detriment of the overall performance of the company. The union might not want to protect and fight for them, but they don't have a choice.

This really hurts. Remember, we are talking supermarket margins here. Being force to employ weak players, while paying them top dollar, is troubling, especially when there are other hard working drivers out there working at non-union carriers that would love to get into a Teamster barn.

I think a hard working Teamster driver is worth every penny they get. The concept of protecting the weak sisters is what burns me.

Hockey Puck, I don't have the time to debat everything with you right now but I can tell you that Teamster companies do have Premium Service Employee language that does permit road men to work the dock.

As for doing drops and hooks, you are partially right. If a road man pulls into a terminal that has it's own employees there, you're right, those employees will do the drop and hooks since it is their work.
If that terminal has no employees there to do the work or the terminal is closed, the roadman will do his own hook
 
Cfer - I am pretty sure that the premium service position has only been approved for ABF thus far. Yellow and Roadway both had their requests kicked back. I may be wrong, but I do recall seeing that on this board somewhere.

With regards to linehaul men "picking and kicking" I seem to recall a rash of crap the Holland guys were getting because they were able to touch freight while the rest of the northeast NMFA guys could not and would not.

I know that companies on white paper contracts may be able to, but the only NMFA carrier I thought was Holland.

Again, you know that I do not know all the rules and regulations, but these were a couple of things I learned from the guys here.
 
Friend of the frog said:
Cfer - I am pretty sure that the premium service position has only been approved for ABF thus far. Yellow and Roadway both had their requests kicked back. I may be wrong, but I do recall seeing that on this board somewhere.

With regards to linehaul men "picking and kicking" I seem to recall a rash of crap the Holland guys were getting because they were able to touch freight while the rest of the northeast NMFA guys could not and would not.

I know that companies on white paper contracts may be able to, but the only NMFA carrier I thought was Holland.

Again, you know that I do not know all the rules and regulations, but these were a couple of things I learned from the guys here.

FOTF, Like you, I don't know everything either but I'm almost positive that Yellow is using the PSE and I've heard Roadway is talking about it.

The main point I was trying to make to Hockey Puck was that the language is there whether the company uses it or not so the union contract is not quite as inflexible as he believes it may be
 
CFer/FOTF -

My understanding is that Yellow has also implemented Premium Service employees in the Midwest, focusing on attempting to compete in next day lanes. they have had little success.

While the upcharge for a premium service employee is minimal, it is still an upcharge in an industry with supermarket margins. Non-union carriers can have anyone they want touch the freight with no premium over their standard pay rate.

It is my understanding that Con-way, a great operator, typically has linehaul drivers load their initial dispatch and also unload their trailer at final destination. This is a great help at the two crunch times when dock support is needed, getting linehaul running quickly in initial dispatches in the pm and getting freight broke and on the street quickly in the am. No wonder thay operate like they do.

Questions to ponder;

1) Premium Service employees can only be used on "new" business, not existing business, per the NMFA. This work rule penalizes NMFA carriers vs. the non-unions greatly. How can this rule be justified?

2) You are right on drops and hooks. However, how can anyone justify having an able bodied, capable line haul driver go sit in the driver's room, on the clock, while a yard hostler breaks doubles and backs up trailers to the dock? Because "it has always been like that" is a weak arguement.

While the Teamsters Union has made strides in flexibility, there is still a long way to go.

Again, I have no issue with paying a hard working Teamster market leading wages and benefits, but high labor costs, combined with work rules from the 1970's, is painful.
 
Let's examine some of the fallacies being brought up here. There are many, so this may take a while...

"...No doubt, CF was badly managed, ABF is extremely well run. But take a look at the list of the top 27 LTL carriers in America today based upon annual revenue listed in Transport Topics a couple of weeks ago. Here it goes, with the largest one listed first... only 3 are organized, 2 are Teamster... There were sure alot more Teamster carriers listed then than there are now. In fact, over the last 10-15 years, virtually all of the growth in the LTL game has been by the non-union carriers, while the old line Teamster carriers have gone under, one by one, leaving this list today..."

On the surface, your point is true. There are fewer Teamster-represented carriers today than several decades ago. But to point at one causation (i.e. labor cost) as being the sole reason why these companies have disappeared is simplistic and misleading. You act as if they exist in a vacuum. Labor cost is the biggest cost for any carrier, but is not the only factor in the equation when looking at long-term survivability and profitability.

To examine the root causes of these carrier's failures, one has to look at the transition period right after deregulation, and extending for about a decade and a half into the mid-Nineties. Many carriers that thrived under the era of regulation were ill-equipped to deal with the new landscape that emerged after deregulation in the trucking industry.

Why?

Part of the reason was due to how the system under ICC regulation worked. A carrier couldn't just start up and start hauling freight. they had to apply for operating authority from the ICC, and prove there was a need for their services. If that wasn't possible or there existed no need as the Commission saw it, then they had to buy another carrier or their operating authority. This often incurred large expenses, and saddled carriers with burdensome debt loads and service requirements. In the days of regulation, a carrier with operating authority for a certain region was required by the ICC to service all areas of that region, no matter how rural or far out of the way or financially burdensome it might be.

Carriers had to build terminal hub-and-spoke networks and maintain equipment and personnel to service these out-of-the-way areas. The problem is that after deregulation all it really took to start a trucking company was to have a truck and a phone, and operating authority was easy to get and relatively cheap, compared to under regulation. This environment favored small start-up carriers with little-to-no overhead, while the big carriers received no financial compensation for the often huge financial burdens they had been forced to shoulder under deregulation. They simply could not react quickly enough to a changing industry, nor could many of them afford the huge terminal networks they were now stuck with. In essence, the government screwed the big old carriers by deregulating the industry so quickly and without providing some kind of equalizing measures to compensate them for costs incurred under the old system that were completely invalid for the new system.

Many of the older carriers either went out of business or were bought up by other carriers because of these economic factors. True, labor costs for the older carriers were higher, but had they been operating on a more-or-less level playing field, that issue would not have near the factor it became. Look at trucking in the Eighties and Nineties, and tell me where the drivers got a better deal than in the old days. Sure, trucking got more efficient, due to shipper pressure and a more lax regulatory environment, but I say they became more efficient on the backs of the workers, for the most part. Trucking wages are still stagnant compared with the Seventies, and have not kept up with inflation, even with the unionized truckers. Benefits are lacking, and retirement security is a pipe dream for most drivers.

"...It is time to face facts. Our industry features operating margins like the supermarket industry. Slim and none. Labor expense accounts for 50%-65% of an LTL carrier's total cost. If you have a 5% to 10% cost advantage in labor costs (including benefits, where the real difference lies union vs. nonunion), that is huge. Come on, which one of these LTL carriers pays OT? At best, nonunion guys get it after 45 plus hours a week, not like union carriers with OT after 8 hours..."

So... we should all just sit back and accept our fate? That the unionized carriers are doomed to fail, and the non-union carriers will continue to pay lesser wages and benefits, and we should all just accept that?

Son, are you on crack?

You are trying, if I get your point, to say that we are engaged in a race to the bottom, and we all ought to just sit back and let it happen? Shame, shame on the unions for trying to draw a line in the sand, and hold back the forces that seek to weaken and destroy the middle-class in this country?

Is this what we have come down to in this country? Workers have become apologists for the big money types who play their chess games on Wall Street, and gamble with people's livelihoods? The middle-class has bought into the lies perpetrated by those who see to gain more and more and give less and less?

Let me tell you this: We Americans are the hardest-working, most productive workers IN THE WORLD! It is we who have built this nation; with our sweat, our blood and often our lives.

And yet we are told by captains of industry and their trained media parrots that it isn't good enough. Globalization and capitalism demand sacrifices, you understand. Blood sacrifices. So we sit by and watch first our blue-collar manufacturing jobs go overseas. That's okay, the captains of industry tell us, there will be jobs to replace those. jobs that require intellectual skills, not labor. Only then we have started to see even those "white-collar" jobs being outsourced overseas. well, say the captains of industry, we must allow for free trade and market forces to be the key factor here. So our family-wage jobs go to India and Indonesia and China, where they pay their workers cents on the dollar; where they have no environmental regulations or worker safety regulations; where children work in sweatshops for hours and days on end... ALL OF THESE THINGS AMERICAN WORKERS WERE FORCED TO ENDURE HISTORICALLY BEFORE UNIONS PUT A STOP TO IT-- THROUGH STRIKES, THROUGH POLITICAL PRESSURE AND THROUGH NEGOTIATING!

OH, THE HUMANITY!

(ahem)

Got a little worked up there, I guess. Some say, fine.. we understand that unions had a place in the past, but they are outmoded now. Oh really? So if every union just... went away... everything would stay status quo and it would all be hunky-dory from here on out?

Pardon my disbelief, but I live in the real world, and do not believe in fairy tales.

As an American worker, I'll not bow my knee for any man, nor will I bow my head in shame for being a UNION worker because our PROUD legacy will survive and we will continue to have place in American industry and in the world.

Yes, many union carriers have come and gone, but those that are left are doing the right things to survive and prosper, and the financial data proves it...
 
"...I always get a kick out of how union members try to recruit new members by explaining how much better they are paid.

Then they explain how the compay pays for the benefits in full.

Then the super pension plan.

Finally, the clearly defined work rules.

These are all 100% accurate and provide the union member with valid reasons to be part of an organized work force.

Then the other breath they say that they can be just as cost effective as a union free company.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too guys.

You do very well for yourselves, but you do put the company at a disadvantage when it comes to pricing business.

That is a simple fact..."

I always get a kick out of how some people are willing to sell themselves short. Hey, if you don't want to make a decent wage or benefits, son, there are a billion carriers out there that can accomodate you.

You can hold your head up proudly and say, "Look at me! I'm union free! I don't have a pension, or health insurance I can afford, and my wages keep going down or are stagnant, but hey... at least I'm not in a union!"

Now that's something to be proud about, huh?

Labor costs are higher in union carriers. No one is disputing that. Whether it truly creates a disparity in competition is something else. What I find amusing is how many people, yourself included apparently, who aren't outraged at how you are being sold short. Well, maybe amusing isn't the right word.

Maybe shameful is more like it.

So if you want to engage in a race towards the bottom, I say bring it on. I may end up losing in the end, because there are always some bottom-dwellers out there that would cut their mother's throat for a dime, but I choose to take the high road, personally.

It's called the American way.

Even if it's more difficult or the light at the end of the tunnel is nonexistent. Better that than sacrificing what myself and my father and grandfather and his forefathers worked so hard to gain for all workers and for their families.

If you want to believe the lies that are being told about the evils of unionism and why American workers are overpaid and just expect to damned much... well, son, do what you got to do. I pity you, though. That's a hell of a way to live your life...
 
Hockey Puck said:
"...Good exchange between shifterknob and FF.

Shifterknob, you still haven't responded to my list of the 27 largest LTL carriers in the country and the fact that only 2 of them are organized by the Teamsters and the third (NEMF) has what is generally refered to as a "user friendly" union contract.

It is a darn good thing that linehaul drivers touch freight at Oak Harbor. That flexibility is required from teamster carriers in order to compete with the non-union folks. Perhaps that is one of the contributing factors to why Oak Harbor is still in biz after 90 years???

In the Midwest, however, NMFA carriers don't have this luxury. There are still a bunch of silly work rules in the Heartland that contribute greatly to the 5%-10% cost advantage the non-unions have. For instance, we still have the rule that line haul drivers never touch a piece of freight at their origin and/or destination docks, and in some cases, never touch a piece of freight, anywhere, anytime. Line haul drivers can't drop, hook, back a trailer into a dock, etc. etc. tons of time wasted as they watch someone else do this work as they wait on the clock.

In addition, FF is dead right when he says people are people. A small percentage of them are lazy and non-productive, union and non-union. The big problem is, at a non-union carrier, a non-productive person is shown the door. At a union company, a non-productive person is required, by Federal Law, to be supported 100% by their Union, to the detriment of the overall performance of the company. The union might not want to protect and fight for them, but they don't have a choice.

This really hurts. Remember, we are talking supermarket margins here. Being force to employ weak players, while paying them top dollar, is troubling, especially when there are other hard working drivers out there working at non-union carriers that would love to get into a Teamster barn.

I think a hard working Teamster driver is worth every penny they get. The concept of protecting the weak sisters is what burns me..."

Ah, the fallacies multiply!

First of all, there are lazy people at union and non-union carriers. Sometimes they get shown the door at non-union carriers. Other times, they don't.

Why?

They are the dock boss' little brother. Or they are the company snitch. Or they simply do a good job of sucking-up or hiding their laziness. And not all lazy union guys get a free ride. If you are not pulling your weight, you will eventually screw up badly enough to get shown the door.

But the factor you don't mention is the guy who isn't lazy, but has someone higher up the food chain who has it out for him. Maybe he stood up for himself over some wrongfully-administered discipline. Or took a customer's side in a dispute. At any rate, got himself on someones bad side. Might be a good worker, but they have it out for him, In a union-free environment, which we union guys call "work-at-will", you can be fired for practically any reason and without justification, and you have little or no recourse. In a union environment, the same guy can be fired, too, but he will likely get his job back with back-pay. That's what our dues pay for, in part.

Gosh, that's a horrible system, huh?

I suppose we have a lot of Teamster "weak sisters" here at Oak Harbor. I mean, our city guys are working fourteen hour days, five days a week or more. Our line guys are often running at least as much. Our dock guys are always working beau coup overtime. And yet, when a driver calls in that he is feeling sick or fatigued after working this way for months and months on end, they try and give the guy a letter, or even suspend or terminate the guy. Of course, the union steps in and deals with it, and the company resents that.

How dare we union drivers get tired or ill? How dare we have lives outside of our jobs! how dare we stand up to management and tell them that they are breaking federal and state law, not to mention our legally-binding contract! What a bunch of weak sisters!

Look, if you have a guy who wants to work in a union barn, I suggest you send him on down. Everybody is hiring right now, and there is no time like the present.

And you need to examine your presuppositions about lazy people in union barns. They are outdated, and mostly wrong. There are very few of us who don't realize that it is a different day and age, but neither are we going to just lay down and let management run rough-shod over us. It's a fine balancing act, to be sure, but it's not impossible.

Of course, if American workers keep allowing themselves to be sold a bill of goods by politicians bought and paid for by big business, then it's all for nought in the long run, anyhow...
 
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