ABF | Butch Lewis Act

[Homesick]

What happens in a few years when the Butch Lewis Act gets passed? Union-held defined-benefit pensions get restored back to the ...premier retirement vehicle the used to be,.....

Hopefully the Butch Lewis Act will get passed and everything will work out great (my hopes and prayers and my voice to Congress with a couple of phone calls and several emails).

But the odds of defined benefit pension plans becoming 'the law of the land' or the 'rule instead of the exception' are nonexistent. What new defined benefit plans have been created for nongovernmental employees in the last 20 years? What new defined benefit plans have been created by any organizations in the last 20years?

QUOTE="canaryinthemine, post: 1397416, member: 6398"]The ERISA rules were WRITTEN and DESIGNED to force Union-held Funds to come up with "solutions[/QUOTE]
That is an interesting interpretation of the law. But the same thing could be said for all laws and rules. It would be interesting to see that interpretation tried in a court case. But until then, I'm going to interpret all laws to mean exactly what they say and not as a challenge looking for a solution.

I wonder what the consequences are for these "solutions" you think the defined pensions where forced to create?

 

[canaryinthemine]

The “consequences “ were evident, Brother.......No funds available in the event of a....financial emergency.
The...penalty for being temporarily 100% funded,.....was that employers could quit paying into those funds,.....and could re-negotiate pension funding terms , once funding dipped back below 100%.

The idea.....promoted by the employers,.....was that pension funds could not “bank” a Rainy Day emergency fund......with employer money. ALL funds had to be distributed to participants........with no “savings” allowed.

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Insurance program was created so that pension funds did NOT have to ......”save money”.......in the event of a financial downturn. By LAW , the PBGI is supposed to be fully funded........
PBGI runs out of money in 2023........because Congress won’t reauthorize funding......

Would we need the Butch Lewis Act ......if PBGI was fully funded?

 

[canaryinthemine]

I like Dire Straits (money for nothing) MTV

I do not regret the use of the term “Dire Straits”.....

In fact,....if I was so inclined,....I would somehow work the lyrics “ Money for Nothing, Checks for Free”......into the conversation about how Wall Street and Employers feel about their employee’s pensions,.....
......and how those stinky workers don’t deserve them.....

 

[Homesick]

The idea.....promoted by the employers,.....was that pension funds could not “bank” a Rainy Day emergency fund......with employer money. ALL funds had to be distributed to participants........with no “savings” allowed.

Brother could you expand on that statement for me please. We are currently using money that was put into the fund years ago. No, let me phrase that a different way; the money the employers put into the fund now is being used to pay funds retired participants but it is not enough to fully pay the current number of retired participants and addition funds must be added from the reserve, or rainy day fund, in order to fully pay the current retired participants. The fund is not out of money yet so how is the billions of dollars now in the fund not part of the rainy day fund?

For example, my current retirement accounts are not being drawn on so all of the money in it is in my rainy day fund.

 

[Crystal]

addition funds must be added from the reserve, or rainy day fund, in order to fully pay the current retired participants.

Where did you get the idea that there is a reserve or rainy day fund?

 

[iam4us]

You said u didn’t say it. That was a lie. That’s what I said.

You have too much time on your hands to disect and twist words. Shows your ignorance.. Hope if you are an ABF employee they fire you for being so fricken stupid.. Set a president. I can see why everyone thinks your an *******.. You should go to the Who Gives a :: thread and post..

 

[Homesick]

Where did you get the idea that there is a reserve or rainy day fund?

Sorry brother, I knew I was not making my point well. At this moment in time (8.16.19) there is more money in the Central States Pension Fund (example only) than is being paid out to the current number of retirees in CSPF for this month or this year. That additional amount is over $17 billion dollars (if I remember correctly). The way CSPF is calculated (if I have read the many CSPF yearly statement correctly) is employer contribution plus return from investments plus fund capital...... minus amount paid to retirees......equals year end balance (there is also the fee for the funds personnel). Is that correct? Anyone disagree? Am I wrong?

Ok, so the contribution from employers and the returns on investments together are not enough; or are less than the amount needed to pay the current retirees pension benefits. Anyone disagree? Am I wrong?

So in order to pay the current retirees the full amount of their current pension benefits additional monies must be added to the amount received from employers and the return on investments. Anyone disagree? Is the employer contributions and the return on investments enough to pay all retirees benefits?

So the rainy day fund is the additional amount ($17 billion or so) that CSPF draws from in order to pay the remaining balance due to the current retirees. It is also what creates most of the money generated by CSPF that is called “return on investments.”

For example: In your monthly and yearly household income budget all of your income probably comes from your work related paychecks (living below your means). But additional income may come from investments and the returns those investments create. But on those rare occasions you have to draw additional monies from savings, or credit cards, or short term loans to pay your bills, then those are monies from your rainy day funds.

 

[Crystal]

So the rainy day fund is the additional amount ($17 billion or so) that CSPF draws from in order to pay the remaining balance due to the current retirees. It is also what creates most of the money generated by CSPF that is called “return on investments.”

Excuse my ignorance on this subject. I've never heard the remaining underfunded pension assets referred to as being reserve or "rainy day" funds. I would think that a fund would have to be 100% "fully" funded before those fund monies could be considered as extra or "rainy day" funds.

 

[Homesick]

Excuse my ignorance on this subject. I've never heard the remaining underfunded pension assets referred to as being reserve or "rainy day" funds. I would think that a fund would have to be 100% "fully" funded before those fund monies could be considered as extra or "rainy day" funds.

I think we are having a slight communications problem. Could you in simple terms (like I'm stupid) please explain what 100% fully funded means to you? I'm not meaning to be insulting in any way, I'm truly trying to overcome our communicates problem.

To me 100% fully funded is when the monies paid by the companies + the return on investment = retirees paid in full; no extra money needed.

But to the CSPF... life expectancies, age of retirees, number of current non-retired members (active members), their ages, expected ages at retirement, length of service, inflation, interest rates, stockmarket returns, etc must be calculated for them to define 100% fully funded. And CSPF does not release that information (I have been told that in at least 2 letters).
It would be interesting to have those numbers to check CSPF findings. And to plug in different rate of return from different investment vehicles to see how they would affect the 100% fully funded calculation.

 

[SAC75]

You have too much time on your hands to disect and twist words. Shows your ignorance.. Hope if you are an ABF employee they fire you for being so fricken stupid.. Set a president. I can see why everyone thinks your an .. You should go to the Who Gives a :::: thread and post..

You’re the idiot posting ignorant stuff. Set a President? What? You’re the retarded one who doesn’t see what he posts before he mouths off. Cry me a river idiot.

 

[Crystal]

I think we are having a slight communications problem. Could you in simple terms (like I'm stupid) please explain what 100% fully funded means to you?

The way it was explained to me is that an underfunded pension is one that has more liabilities than assets. That there isn't enough money in the fund that's needed to cover present and projected payouts for the foreseeable future.

 

[canaryinthemine]

Excuse my ignorance on this subject. I've never heard the remaining underfunded pension assets referred to as being reserve or "rainy day" funds. I would think that a fund would have to be 100% "fully" funded before those fund monies could be considered as extra or "rainy day" funds.

The way it was explained to me is that an underfunded pension is one that has more liabilities than assets. That there isn't enough money in the fund that's needed to cover present and projected payouts for the foreseeable future.

Bingo,...and Double Bingo!......Thank you Bro. Crystal......That is the explanation........

Bro. Homesick,....to get a true insight on this,...I'd recommend calling your Trustees and have them explain what the unfunded liabilities are and why pension funds can not hold money in reserve.
Also,.......I'd request...in writing,...that the pension fund send you a Form 5500. I would request all attachments and work sheets that go with Form 5500.
Pension funds are required,...By Law,...to send you the Form 5500, and anything pertaining to it,...within 2 weeks of your written request. If they do not comply,...the Department of Treasury requires them to send you $100 a day until they do comply. ERISA Act of 1974 rules.....

Form 5500 is the pension fund's income tax filing, and schedule of investments. Send a check for at least $10,...because you'll have to pay for the mailing,...and it will be 3 inches thick.
Defined-benefit funds are required to provide this information to any active participant in that fund.....I did it for years from the Western Penna. Teamsters Fund. Very interesting reading,...especially the investments section..........

If you wish,...you can pay an accountant to do a forensic investigation into the fund,..using the information provided,.....We did here in W. Pa. back in 1995 and 1996. It's a little expensive,...but you'll have a Third-Party plain language explanation as to why the fund is in the shape it is,...and exactly what the liabilities vs. projected expenses are.

Maybe a few of your co-workers can pitch in for the forensic investigation.....That's how we paid for it,.....it was about $800.....

That would give you far better answers about your exact fund,.....than a bunch of Ol' Gearjammers can provide you here...

 

[Homesick]

The way it was explained to me is that an underfunded pension is one that has more liabilities than assets. That there isn't enough money in the fund that's needed to cover present and projected payouts for the foreseeable future.

Thanks to you and Canary but that is incorrect. Or if not incorrect at least irrelevant. Let me ask you and Canary a question, how do you KNOW the fund has more liabilities than assets? The assets are plainly listed every year but the liabilities are not.

Tell me about CSPF projected liabilities? How did the fund determine the project liabilities? What formula did they use. For that matter, what do you KNOW for sure about the liabilities?

Canary, I requested a prospectus from CSPF 2 or 3 years ago. It cost $25, according to my wife but she is not sure. I believe I posted something about it on TB at the time. Asking some of these same questions about the liabilities.

I apologize for the spelling errors. I'm on vacation in the Smoky mountains. Poor service here.

 

[SAC75]

Thanks to you and Canary but that is incorrect. Or if not incorrect at least irrelevant. Let me ask you and Canary a question, how do you KNOW the fund has more liabilities than assets? The assets are plainly listed every year but the liabilities are not.

Tell me about CSPF projected liabilities? How did the fund determine the project liabilities? What formula did they use. For that matter, what do you KNOW for sure about the liabilities?

Canary, I requested a prospectus from CSPF 2 or 3 years ago. It cost $25, according to my wife but she is not sure. I believe I posted something about it on TB at the time. Asking some of these same questions about the liabilities.

I apologize for the spelling errors. I'm on vacation in the Smoky mountains. Poor service here.

The liabilities are 400,000 CSPF members eventually wanting to draw pension funds. At current rate of draw to the fund it will be bankrupt in two to five years. Some members including me won’t retire for 20 plus years. Making CSPF underfunded! Pretty simple math I think.

 

[GO40]

You have too much time on your hands to disect and twist words. Shows your ignorance.. Hope if you are an ABF employee they fire you for being so fricken stupid.. Set a president. I can see why everyone thinks your an .. You should go to the Who Gives a :::: thread and post..

Maybe you should re-read your word's before you post if you have a problem with being called out? Every point you try to make is 99% pro company & 100% anti union. Now you want a fellow employee fired because he don't agree with you.... now that's stupid....

 

[canaryinthemine]

set a "president" wow..talk about re-reading and proper..shows your ignorance..wow..iam4us...go back to grammar class..
maybe a little adverb, synonym lesson??? By the way, I hope our next "president" is already set with a precedence from the last election..you know , the presence of the Russians in setting a precedence in electing our last president?? come on now iam4us..get with the proper Espanol!

Hah! Our politics might differ, Brother........but you sure have a way with Words!
I tried to say your sentence about presence and presidents out loud three times fast.....
........and I had to stick a screwdriver in my mouth to untangle my tongue from my molars.........

 

[6PakAbs]

You have too much time on your hands to disect and twist words. Shows your ignorance.. Hope if you are an ABF employee they fire you for being so fricken stupid.. Set a president. I can see why everyone thinks your an .. You should go to the Who Gives a :::: thread and post..

come on now...how about a little lesson in proper English..Set a "president"...wow...you need a little lesson on synonyms./adverbs..
Set a "precedence" in the "presence" of the Russians in electing our last "President" come on now..before you start attacking others with your ignorance, get a little lesson in spelling and annunciation so you can REALLY spout off !.

 

[Homesick]

The liabilities are 400,000 CSPF members eventually wanting to draw pension funds. At current rate of draw to the fund it will be bankrupt in two to five years. Some members including me won’t retire for 20 plus years. Making CSPF underfunded! Pretty simple math I think.

I won't be eligible for retirement for almost 7 years [because of my age] but I don't plan on retiring for 5 to 15 years after that, depending on things like my health, my DOT physical [loose my 2 year card], how happy I am with my life situation, etc.

But we were defining what is consider a rainy day fund. And Crystal and I just had a slight difference of opinion in the definition.

Sacs, I'm going to split hairs here but it seems like an important distinction to me. The CSPF has only 254,687 active and retired members. The fund recieved 1.1 billion in employer contributions but spent 2.8 billion in benefits. My point is the fund declined only [LOL :( ] 1.7 billion in value. The fund has 13.2 billion in assets. Not quite as dire as 2 to 5 years, unless the fund managers get an exceptional poor return on investment. But your point that you and I will probably not receive any pension benefits is a valid and likely point.

 

[SAC75]

I won't be eligible for retirement for almost 7 years [because of my age] but I don't plan on retiring for 5 to 15 years after that, depending on things like my health, my DOT physical [loose my 2 year card], how happy I am with my life situation, etc.

But we were defining what is consider a rainy day fund. And Crystal and I just had a slight difference of opinion in the definition.

Sacs, I'm going to split hairs here but it seems like an important distinction to me. The CSPF has only 254,687 active and retired members. The fund recieved 1.1 billion in employer contributions but spent 2.8 billion in benefits. My point is the fund declined only [LOL :( ] 1.7 billion in value. The fund has 13.2 billion in assets. Not quite as dire as 2 to 5 years, unless the fund managers get an exceptional poor return on investment. But your point that you and I will probably not receive any pension benefits is a valid and likely point.

Don’t let the headline fool ya tell ya read it. There are 385,000 participants in central states. 41 billion in liabilities.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ebauer...tral-states-pension-plan-is-fully-funded/amp/

The “big” Central States pension plan (385,000 participants, $41 billion liability) is a plan for members of the Teamsters union locals in, as its full name implies, the Central States, Southeast and Southwest Areas.

 

[joes bar and grill]

I like Dire Straits (money for nothing) MTV

They needed a pension, poor old lead singer couldn't afford shoes.