ABF | How to settle CONTRACT

[nothumbleenough]

Western Penna.Pension Fund is $366.00 a week....two clock punches equals a week qualifier for pension fund. No co-pay for health insurance at $1264.00 a month versus , say....Conway with a 5% co-pay a month just to maintain their $1200.00 or so, a month health insurance, which at say $ 60,000.00 a year at 5% equals about $58.00 a week just to maintain what we get without a co-pay. $366.00 a week in the pension fund equals $9.15 an hour, over and above your hourly wage.....so that makes your total compensation package $33.57 an hour plus $1264.00 a month in health care. Conway's ...or OD's.....or Estes.,... compensation is their hourly wage MINUS whatever they defer for pension in a 401(k),..and MINUS the 5% or thereabouts for health care co-pay. They don't pay overtime at OD, or Estes , or Ward,...or at any number of non-Union carriers. Now factor that in...........There's probably a 30 to 40% total compensation package difference in what we get, and what the non-Unions get. No wonder ABF wants to lower us down. Remember, though....all those guys in the non's accepted lower wages and benefits, we never did.....YRC excepting. We're trying to maintain what we have, and the non-Union guys are sliding into the abyss.....and dragging us with them. If....and it's a big "If"...we accept wage and benefit cuts, we'll just be accelerating the drop into the abyss for the whole industry....EVERYBODY will take pay cuts pretty much immmediately after we take ours....if we do. And....when EVERYONE does......then I'll guarantee you they'll be asking to re-open the contract in a year or two, anyway, to try and jam more pay and benefit cuts down our throats. It's like throwing red meat at a lion to get him to stop chasing you.....it'll stop him for a bit,...but you've only whetted his appetite for more. BUT IF WE HOLD THE LINE.....DRAW THE LINE AND SAY "THE WAGE CUTS STOP HERE!"........then I think the non-Unions will gradually start edging their wage and benefit package back up closer to ours....if for no other reason than to prevent organizing at a wage cutting company....especially when a Teamster company has shown them how to stand firm. Our choice....downward spiral......or hold the line.

Lots of the conclusions you draw are contrary to basic economic theory. First off, when YRC hammered through their multiple wage concessions and pension decrease, wages did not fall at the non-union companies. Some of these companies reduced 401k contributions that were already a fraction of what the union companies paid into our pensions. A couple other companies did not increase wages for a couple of years. This was tied more closely to the overall softness of the LTL market back in 2008 and both (salary increases and normal 401k contributions)have long since recovered.

These non-union companies certainly don't have contracts that limit the number of subcontracting that goes on and if you read some of the truckingboards pages, you will see companies like Fedex are increasing the numbers of subcontractors. This is essentially a downward force on everyone's wages including ours at ABF as the LTL market becomes more and more cost sensitive. If you sell any product and that product is not dramatically different from the same product (moving freight) offered by many other companies, cost becomes the overriding most important factor. ABF is not a profitable entity currently, why on earth would the board want to continue with things as they currently are? Seriously, you really need to answer this question. The point is they wouldn't because as things are currently in the LTL market, ABF has a dead business model. This is not rocket science but basic economic principle with regards to profitability. The company knows their situation better than anyone which might explain their willingness to risk everything by breaking free from the union. I have no inside knowledge but have spend many years in banking before driving a truck and understand that if you don't have profit, you will eventually go out of business.
I strongly believe our best option was to work something out on the pension as part of our contract and not allow the terms to the pension to be drastically altered post-contract agreement by the pension trustees. That isn't even on the table at this point so the bar needs to be lower. I hope every Teamster appreciates the power of a written contract. The non-unions would die for a conversation about how their job will be handled versus dictated. Significant cost savings must be passed along to ABF or they will essentially lock us out when our contract expires. I would hope that whatever terms are put into our next contract, we do not budge on the pension liability. This will ultimately be our most significant card against ABF just telling us to "blank off" as they lock us out.

This is my opinion,

 

[jimk849]

Soapbox pontificating, this is my opinion

 

[nothumbleenough]

Soapbox pontificating, this is my opinion

Yes jimk849, you're right, profitable companies are not that important. Good luck finding a job where the only concern is paying your wage and not making a profit in a free-market capitalistic society. I believe Russia tried that philosophy. They called it communism and the long-term results sucked.

 

[jimk849]

The banklng industry from where you say you came is a shining example of supreme success.

 

[Deleted member 5115]

Lots of the conclusions you draw are contrary to basic economic theory. First off, when YRC hammered through their multiple wage concessions and pension decrease, wages did not fall at the non-union companies. Some of these companies reduced 401k contributions that were already a fraction of what the union companies paid into our pensions. A couple other companies did not increase wages for a couple of years. This was tied more closely to the overall softness of the LTL market back in 2008 and both (salary increases and normal 401k contributions)have long since recovered.

These non-union companies certainly don't have contracts that limit the number of subcontracting that goes on and if you read some of the truckingboards pages, you will see companies like Fedex are increasing the numbers of subcontractors. This is essentially a downward force on everyone's wages including ours at ABF as the LTL market becomes more and more cost sensitive. If you sell any product and that product is not dramatically different from the same product (moving freight) offered by many other companies, cost becomes the overriding most important factor. ABF is not a profitable entity currently, why on earth would the board want to continue with things as they currently are? Seriously, you really need to answer this question. The point is they wouldn't because as things are currently in the LTL market, ABF has a dead business model. This is not rocket science but basic economic principle with regards to profitability. The company knows their situation better than anyone which might explain their willingness to risk everything by breaking free from the union. I have no inside knowledge but have spend many years in banking before driving a truck and understand that if you don't have profit, you will eventually go out of business.
I strongly believe our best option was to work something out on the pension as part of our contract and not allow the terms to the pension to be drastically altered post-contract agreement by the pension trustees. That isn't even on the table at this point so the bar needs to be lower. I hope every Teamster appreciates the power of a written contract. The non-unions would die for a conversation about how their job will be handled versus dictated. Significant cost savings must be passed along to ABF or they will essentially lock us out when our contract expires. I would hope that whatever terms are put into our next contract, we do not budge on the pension liability. This will ultimately be our most significant card against ABF just telling us to "blank off" as they lock us out.

This is my opinion,

It sounds to me like you are touting your opinions to be facts. You should stick to what you know. If you are a Teamster at ABF would you please go elsewhere to work?

BTW you can shorten your harangues, I don't read most of it and you are wasting your time.

 

[Songremainsthesame]

OD pays no overtime, that's right all hours worked are at straight time.

Begging your pardon, but they do in fact pay overtime. It's not until 60 hours but they do pay it.

 

[nothumbleenough]

It sounds to me like you are touting your opinions to be facts. You should stick to what you know. If you are a Teamster at ABF would you please go elsewhere to work?

BTW you can shorten your harangues, I don't read most of it and you are wasting your time.

Mr. ABFer, I was responding to a "harangue" from canary who was arguing for the ******* plunge because he was convinced the non-union drivers wages will eventually start to match ours "if we only hold the line." Maybe your concern is also about the non-union drivers wages and not those who currently work at ABF.

Again, in your own words and perspective, please explain why you think ABF would want to continue operating a company that doesn't make a profit? Nothing personal, just a reality of market based capitalism. They have options on the non-union side that could possibly grow their business in the long run, and it sounds like management is interested in pursing those options. It seems like the Teamster perspective should be to protect and create union jobs. Having the ability to sign a contract could stunt the growth if the language is written effectively. As with most things come contract time, it is negotiable so I would like to talk about.

Lastly, this forum was not created just for you but all my fellow ABF drivers to come and sort different ideas to the many problems we face as Teamsters in what has become a non-union LTL world. So don't read them.

 

[nothumbleenough]

The banklng industry from where you say you came is a shining example of supreme success.

Banks play an important role in our economy considering most people don't have the money in their bank account to buy a car or house. I would suggest my point about the banking experience goes clearly to ascertain whether a company is profitable or not. Do you agree if companies are not profitable, they go out of business or radically change their business model?

 

[jimk849]

When you were in banking, was the mail-room on the main floor or was it in the basement?

 

[GO40]

Begging your pardon, but they do in fact pay overtime. It's not until 60 hours but they do pay it.

How much ot did you ever get?

 

[Deleted member 5115]

Begging your pardon, but they do in fact pay overtime. It's not until 60 hours but they do pay it.

How much ot did you ever get?

Yea, ,where I come from we're not allowed to drive after we work more than 60 hours in a seven day period. And after working 60 hours I am not interested in working the dock.

 

[Deleted member 5115]

Mr. ABFer, I was responding to a "harangue" from canary who was arguing for the ******* plunge because he was convinced the non-union drivers wages will eventually start to match ours "if we only hold the line." Maybe your concern is also about the non-union drivers wages and not those who currently work at ABF.

Again, in your own words and perspective, please explain why you think ABF would want to continue operating a company that doesn't make a profit? Nothing personal, just a reality of market based capitalism. They have options on the non-union side that could possibly grow their business in the long run, and it sounds like management is interested in pursing those options. It seems like the Teamster perspective should be to protect and create union jobs. Having the ability to sign a contract could stunt the growth if the language is written effectively. As with most things come contract time, it is negotiable so I would like to talk about.

Lastly, this forum was not created just for you but all my fellow ABF drivers to come and sort different ideas to the many problems we face as Teamsters in what has become a non-union LTL world. So don't read them.

A company certainly needs to reap a decent return on their invested money to continue to operate and I don't think anyone will deny that. But it appears to me that the consensus here is that ABF can and will do that without us giving away the farm. I also am confident that if we join in on the race to the bottom that the other companies will simply accelerate the pace.

On the issue of revamping the network I see that coming either way. I believe that ABF held fast with their current network in anticipation that YRC would close and that they/we would be poised to serve their customers better than any other carrier. YRC is still around and the burden of maintaining the system we have is taking its toll.

 

[AkitaDog]

Begging your pardon, but they do in fact pay overtime. It's not until 60 hours but they do pay it.

After 60?You can't work after 60 if your a city operation because that would be a D.O.T. violation.:confused:

 

[Songremainsthesame]

How much ot did you ever get?

Never worked for them, interviewed there once. I work for Con-way (unfortunately) and was only pointing out an error I saw someone post in that OD got no overtime at all.

 

[papajohn]

What I don't understand is why some are pushing for concessions, and are willing lower our standard of living, benefit package, and pension. Why in the world would I vote myself into bankruptcy, just to make a company pay package bigger. I just don't understand this. If the company is going bankrupt, then they will go whether we give concessions or not. I agree that if we do accept concessions, then non unions will do the same to their employees, then where will we be right where we are now. So why would I ever vote for bankrupting my family, teamsters, and maybe most important to me the pension fund. COME ON AND GET REAL, what you are asking is for me to give up what is important to me so you. management, and investors, can profit from our losses. AS LONG AS I HAVE A VOTE, IT IS GOING TO BE A BIG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TO ANY CONCESSIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

 

[GO40]

Never worked for them, interviewed there once. I work for Con-way (unfortunately) and was only pointing out an error I saw someone post in that OD got no overtime at all.

At least you get ot @ Conway ....One of their drivers was telling me the tm had a meeting with them saying he would like them to take lunch when they get back to the terminal ...... Od is now going to see how hard it is to grow now that they got bigger....

 

[vongrimmenstein]

DOT Hours of Service

After 60?You can't work after 60 if your a city operation because that would be a D.O.T. violation.:confused:

Yes you can work on the dock after 60 hours in a 5 day city operation. You can work as many hours on the dock as you want. There is no DOT restriction of the # of hours you work, until you get behind the wheel of a CMV. You can drive the yard horse 100 hours a week in the yard & not be in violation. As long as you don't drive on a public thoroughfare. The Hours of Service rule never comes in to play until you start driving.

 

[nothumbleenough]

What I don't understand is why some are pushing for concessions, and are willing lower our standard of living, benefit package, and pension. Why in the world would I vote myself into bankruptcy, just to make a company pay package bigger. I just don't understand this. If the company is going bankrupt, then they will go whether we give concessions or not. I agree that if we do accept concessions, then non unions will do the same to their employees, then where will we be right where we are now. So why would I ever vote for bankrupting my family, teamsters, and maybe most important to me the pension fund. COME ON AND GET REAL, what you are asking is for me to give up what is important to me so you. management, and investors, can profit from our losses. AS LONG AS I HAVE A VOTE, IT IS GOING TO BE A BIG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TO ANY CONCESSIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Just to make a company pay package bigger? No, not for executive compensation, but for PROFITABILITY. The numbers are clear. In 2012, ABF lost over 7 million dollars. Arkansas Best Corporation Announces Fourth Quarter 2012 Results And Full Year 2012 Results - MarketWatch

Let's review the competition of our publicly traded companies.
Conway, net income of 104 million for 2012 compared to ABF's loss of 7 million.
Con-way Inc. Reports 2012 Fourth-Quarter And Full-Year Results - MarketWatch

Old Dominion, net income of 169 million for 2012, operating ratio of 86.5%. Again, ABF loss of 7.7 million and operating ratio of 101.1.
Old Dominion Freight Line Reports Fourth-Quarter Earnings of $0.46 Per Diluted Share on Revenue of $527.3 Million - MarketWatch

No, I don't want to work there because I already work at ABF as a road driver and make more than what the drivers make at any other company with the exception of UPS Feeder drivers. It is not a radical conclusion to recognize we can make a little less, and become more competitive in the marketplace. The alternative is for significant job losses on the union side at ABF. I believe the company rhetoric when its says it will close many terminals which will result in the loss of many teamster jobs. I also believe many senior drivers are not overly concerned about such threats because they believe seniority will prevent real harm from taking their jobs. Remember, if you don't have a contract, you have no seniority. The company will close the terminals they want in any hypothetical labor dispute and you will not have the right to follow your work. It seems logical to have a contract in place to create order and accountability.

How about it Papajohn, I asked you define (and you declined) solidarity in your own words before. Any chance you can do that now? I wonder are you concerned only about your job and no one elses?

 

[papajohn]

Just to make a company pay package bigger? No, not for executive compensation, but for PROFITABILITY. The numbers are clear. In 2012, ABF lost over 7 million dollars. Arkansas Best Corporation Announces Fourth Quarter 2012 Results And Full Year 2012 Results - MarketWatch

Let's review the competition of our publicly traded companies.
Conway, net income of 104 million for 2012 compared to ABF's loss of 7 million.
Con-way Inc. Reports 2012 Fourth-Quarter And Full-Year Results - MarketWatch

Old Dominion, net income of 169 million for 2012, operating ratio of 86.5%. Again, ABF loss of 7.7 million and operating ratio of 101.1.
Old Dominion Freight Line Reports Fourth-Quarter Earnings of $0.46 Per Diluted Share on Revenue of $527.3 Million - MarketWatch

No, I don't want to work there because I already work at ABF as a road driver and make more than what the drivers make at any other company with the exception of UPS Feeder drivers. It is not a radical conclusion to recognize we can make a little less, and become more competitive in the marketplace. The alternative is for significant job losses on the union side at ABF. I believe the company rhetoric when its says it will close many terminals which will result in the loss of many teamster jobs. I also believe many senior drivers are not overly concerned about such threats because they believe seniority will prevent real harm from taking their jobs. Remember, if you don't have a contract, you have no seniority. The company will close the terminals they want in any hypothetical labor dispute and you will not have the right to follow your work. It seems logical to have a contract in place to create order and accountability.

How about it Papajohn, I asked you define (and you declined) solidarity in your own words before. Any chance you can do that now? I wonder are you concerned only about your job and no one elses?

I do believe in Solidarity, which also why I believe in protecting not just for me but for our kids to. And again why would I bankrupt my family, teamsters and pension fund, which is a good possibility. I know what you say, but I don't believe that is in our best interest. Sure is not mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[canaryinthemine]

Brother Nothumblenough, you make some good points......and you're almost as long-winded as I am.....just kidding.......but I believe, in a contract year,....all companies use "creative" financing to prove how "poor" they are. It becomes a matter of trust and veracity....and ABF management kind of ruined that one two years ago by telling us....with facts and figures , if you remember...that if we didn't vote for concessions, they would be bankrupt within six months, and we would all be out of work. They even "fooled" Tyson Johnson...........You were in banking.....I am sure you've helped clients "creatively".......I mean not knowing exactly what you did, but I think you'll agree banks try to help their clients, sometimes by finding the "grey" areas in financing, and exploiting them...not to break the law, mind you, but to help their clients. Well....in my opinion, all of the evidence points to a very creative interpretation of ABF's finances to create a very favorable climate for negotiating a contract. I don't see their shareholders jumping ship, and I don't see their financial backers cutting off the money supply. I think the "smart" money people are betting we'll take a cut-rate contract....and they'll reap a profit in increased shares values. I understand what you are saying about profitability....you make good points. So, maybe we'll enter into any agreement carefully, and with our eyes open. But , ...I lean more toward Brother PapaJohn's stance,....we've worked too hard to fall back....we are negotiating for the future of the ENTIRE industry.....and my final point,....we are not factoring in the availability of Government-mandated, CDL qualified LTL freight employees. I've said this time and time again,...if ABF wants to shed the Union, and remain in the LTL field with a cut-rate wage package.......who are they going to hire if they're paying the same...with the same lack of benefits and protection...as every other non-Union carrier? I can't see an OD employee leaving OD just because the name on the truck says "ABF" ...if that company now pays the same as OD. ..or Conway....or Estes....So...the question is : How committed is ABF to staying in the LTL field? Can they get out without mortally crippling their company? What do you think, Brother?