ABF | Abf Or No?

[canaryinthemine]

Brother Canary, could you post the exact numbers you are speaking of please? You say 7 market adjustments over 30 years so what exact dates are you referring to? Example: starting date and ending date, dates of the 7 market adjustments, what markets are you referring to [US. Asia, German, etc], what specific market numbers are you using [ETFs, specific stocks, general numbers]?

But seeing as this is America, might I suggest any 30 years of the S&P500 or the DOW Industrial Average.

Gee,.....You're going to make me wear out my calculator batteries, Brother.......

Let's see,.....Market lost about half it's value in 2008,........we've had several "blips".......where 401(k)'s only "lost" a fourth of their value as recently as a few weeks ago,.......
Defined-contribution style retirement schemes took a big hit in September of 2001,.......

Conventional wisdom says that people investing in 401(k)'s actually "make out" when the market drops,.....because stock prices are lower....I don't know,....it looks like being in a race,......and they move the starting line back another 200 foot,...and say; "Start Again!"

The average participant in a defined-contribution "pension"......couldn't tell you a stock from a bond if one crawled up his leg and bit him on the Gluteous Maximus.........Note I said "average"......
The Average "investor" relies SOLELY on the prospectus issued by the investing firm......and the "advice" given him from people who can make commissions steering him certain ways....

Does any 401(k)-style investment firm have the ...average client's best interests at heart?........Or, is the.....average.....client looked upon as .....Sheep to be Sheared?

You can't get out of an employee-sponsored 401(k),..unless you quit or get fired.....IF you think you're "smart" enough,...you can go to a "self-directed" brokerage,...managed by the same investment firm,....
....but you can not get out of withdrawing from,...what I call.....Forced stock market participation.

Even if you quit or get fired,......the tax penalties are so onerous,....you're forced to.....DO something with YOUR money....in a hurry, I might add.........

And,......There is no Government-backed insurance like PBGC,...(...yes I know it's underfunded...sooner or later, a Class-Action lawsuit will be filed on behalf of MEPFs....Kind of like a willfull violation of mandatory funding laws).....
.....And in the Fine Print,.....401(k)'s say just that.....No guarantees,...Subject to the Vagaries of the Market....

...(...Which the "Average" participant DOES NOT understand......Talk about writing rules to....benefit the investing firms......AND Wall Street,...with all these new Sheep,...Oops! , I meant "investors"...)

I know you regard yourself as a canny investor,.....and that's good. Can you tell me what a 30 year rate of return ....for the AVERAGE investor is , currently? Would it be somewhere around the "stuff it in the mattress" level , after 30 years, and about 7 market "adjustments"?....Or 2%?.......3%?

Paltry figures to allow Wall Street to use your payroll deduction for 30 years, while they make 30%-40% off your money.......

401(k)'s,...in My Opinion,...are forced stock market participation,....to benefit investment firms and the stock market, with an influx of.....mandatory payroll deductions,......and a very low long-term rate of return......for the employee "participant"....

 

[Homesick]

Don’t forget to factor in about 7 .......”market adjustments” ......over a 30 year period......

Might kind of....skew.....that 30 year projection........

Ok my friend, you just threw those made up numbers out there to get people involved. My mistake, I thought you might have actually done some research and reached a conclusion I never heard of. Thanks for making people aware of some of the pitfalls when you take responsibility for your own money and future.

 

[Jaloc]

AND bring back all the jobs from China, free lunches, free cell phone, free college tuition..welfare...throw all those in and MORE while you are at it! Hey, the guv-mint just has to use ink and paper to print mo' money ? Right?

Do it contribute 20% to 401k like I do it hurts you will never see a $1000+ net take home check again!

 

[Homesick]

Gee,.....You're going to make me wear out my calculator batteries, Brother.......

Let's see,.....Market lost about half it's value in 2008,........we've had several "blips".......where 401(k)'s only "lost" a fourth of their value as recently as a few weeks ago,.......
Defined-contribution style retirement schemes took a big hit in September of 2001,.......

Conventional wisdom says that people investing in 401(k)'s actually "make out" when the market drops,.....because stock prices are lower....I don't know,....it looks like being in a race,......and they move the starting line back another 200 foot,...and say; "Start Again!"

The average participant in a defined-contribution "pension"......couldn't tell you a stock from a bond if one crawled up his leg and bit him on the Gluteous Maximus.........Note I said "average"......
The Average "investor" relies SOLELY on the prospectus issued by the investing firm......and the "advice" given him from people who can make commissions steering him certain ways....

Does any 401(k)-style investment firm have the ...average client's best interests at heart?........Or, is the.....average.....client looked upon as .....Sheep to be Sheared?

You can't get out of an employee-sponsored 401(k),..unless you quit or get fired.....IF you think you're "smart" enough,...you can go to a "self-directed" brokerage,...managed by the same investment firm,....
....but you can not get out of withdrawing from,...what I call.....Forced stock market participation.

Even if you quit or get fired,......the tax penalties are so onerous,....you're forced to.....DO something with YOUR money....in a hurry, I might add.........

And,......There is no Government-backed insurance like PBGC,...(...yes I know it's underfunded...sooner or later, a Class-Action lawsuit will be filed on behalf of MEPFs....Kind of like a willfull violation of mandatory funding laws).....
.....And in the Fine Print,.....401(k)'s say just that.....No guarantees,...Subject to the Vagaries of the Market....

...(...Which the "Average" participant DOES NOT understand......Talk about writing rules to....benefit the investing firms......AND Wall Street,...with all these new Sheep,...Oops! , I meant "investors"...)

I know you regard yourself as a canny investor,.....and that's good. Can you tell me what a 30 year rate of return ....for the AVERAGE investor is , currently? Would it be somewhere around the "stuff it in the mattress" level , after 30 years, and about 7 market "adjustments"?....Or 2%?.......3%?

Paltry figures to allow Wall Street to use your payroll deduction for 30 years, while they make 30%-40% off your money.......

401(k)'s,...in My Opinion,...are forced stock market participation,....to benefit investment firms and the stock market, with an influx of.....mandatory payroll deductions,......and a very low long-term rate of return......for the employee "participant"....

Brother, here is information from my retirement notes for this week. (1) SPY, an ETF 500 index was $249.92 on 1/1/19 when the market was closed (2) the SPY ETF has paid out $4.10 dividends a share since 1/1/2019 (3) the SPY ETF price is $298.05 as of today (Sunday 9/8/19) (4) the rate of return on SPY from 1/1/2019 to 9/8/19 including dividends is 21.247%. This required no work, you just invested in an index fund.

 

[canaryinthemine]

Brother, here is information from my retirement notes for this week. (1) SPY, an ETF 500 index was $249.92 on 1/1/19 when the market was closed (2) the SPY ETF has paid out $4.10 dividends a share since 1/1/2019 (3) the SPY ETF price is $298.05 as of today (Sunday 9/8/19) (4) the rate of return on SPY from 1/1/2019 to 9/8/19 including dividends is 21.247%. This required no work, you just invested in an index fund.

And the "average" investor understood all that? I mean the average employee whose employer only offers a 401(k) for retirement...?

Or is it one of those deals where you can never have enough training or education,...so if you lose, you're told: "Should've educated yourself better..."?

I get that you're an educated man, as far as the stock and bond market goes.....I understand that you believe everyone should "take responsibility" for their own retirement,...regardless of their fiscal smarts.....

But,.....that was the reason defined-benefit funds were established,...(..AND Government insured..).....so that the "average" working man could rest assured his retirement was in the hands of professionals,...AND insured....

But,...we see over the years, the machinations of the moneyed class are destroying those assurances..(..AND insurances...)....

Why?.....Who benefits?

 

[dokman]

Gee,.....You're going to make me wear out my calculator batteries, Brother.......

Let's see,.....Market lost about half it's value in 2008,........we've had several "blips".......where 401(k)'s only "lost" a fourth of their value as recently as a few weeks ago,.......
Defined-contribution style retirement schemes took a big hit in September of 2001,.......

Conventional wisdom says that people investing in 401(k)'s actually "make out" when the market drops,.....because stock prices are lower....I don't know,....it looks like being in a race,......and they move the starting line back another 200 foot,...and say; "Start Again!"

The average participant in a defined-contribution "pension"......couldn't tell you a stock from a bond if one crawled up his leg and bit him on the Gluteous Maximus.........Note I said "average"......
The Average "investor" relies SOLELY on the prospectus issued by the investing firm......and the "advice" given him from people who can make commissions steering him certain ways....

Does any 401(k)-style investment firm have the ...average client's best interests at heart?........Or, is the.....average.....client looked upon as .....Sheep to be Sheared?

You can't get out of an employee-sponsored 401(k),..unless you quit or get fired.....IF you think you're "smart" enough,...you can go to a "self-directed" brokerage,...managed by the same investment firm,....
....but you can not get out of withdrawing from,...what I call.....Forced stock market participation.

Even if you quit or get fired,......the tax penalties are so onerous,....you're forced to.....DO something with YOUR money....in a hurry, I might add.........

And,......There is no Government-backed insurance like PBGC,...(...yes I know it's underfunded...sooner or later, a Class-Action lawsuit will be filed on behalf of MEPFs....Kind of like a willfull violation of mandatory funding laws).....
.....And in the Fine Print,.....401(k)'s say just that.....No guarantees,...Subject to the Vagaries of the Market....

...(...Which the "Average" participant DOES NOT understand......Talk about writing rules to....benefit the investing firms......AND Wall Street,...with all these new Sheep,...Oops! , I meant "investors"...)

I know you regard yourself as a canny investor,.....and that's good. Can you tell me what a 30 year rate of return ....for the AVERAGE investor is , currently? Would it be somewhere around the "stuff it in the mattress" level , after 30 years, and about 7 market "adjustments"?....Or 2%?.......3%?

Paltry figures to allow Wall Street to use your payroll deduction for 30 years, while they make 30%-40% off your money.......

401(k)'s,...in My Opinion,...are forced stock market participation,....to benefit investment firms and the stock market, with an influx of.....mandatory payroll deductions,......and a very low long-term rate of return......for the employee "participant"....

Dude do some research before you spew sh....... t.

You are one who can’t discipline your self to contribute to your own retirement.
Or want freebies.

 

[dokman]

And the "average" investor understood all that? I mean the average employee whose employer only offers a 401(k) for retirement...?

Or is it one of those deals where you can never have enough training or education,...so if you lose, you're told: "Should've educated yourself better..."?

I get that you're an educated man, as far as the stock and bond market goes.....I understand that you believe everyone should "take responsibility" for their own retirement,...regardless of their fiscal smarts.....

But,.....that was the reason defined-benefit funds were established,...(..AND Government insured..).....so that the "average" working man could rest assured his retirement was in the hands of professionals,...AND insured....

But,...we see over the years, the machinations of the moneyed class are destroying those assurances..(..AND insurances...)....

Why?.....Who benefits?

Investing in 401k your money goes in weekly, so you catch highs and lows. This is called Dollar Cost Averaging.

 

[Homesick]

And the "average" investor understood all that? I mean the average employee whose employer only offers a 401(k) for retirement...?

Or is it one of those deals where you can never have enough training or education,...so if you lose, you're told: "Should've educated yourself better..."?

I get that you're an educated man, as far as the stock and bond market goes.....I understand that you believe everyone should "take responsibility" for their own retirement,...regardless of their fiscal smarts.....

But,.....that was the reason defined-benefit funds were established,...(..AND Government insured..).....so that the "average" working man could rest assured his retirement was in the hands of professionals,...AND insured....

But,...we see over the years, the machinations of the moneyed class are destroying those assurances..(..AND insurances...)....

Why?.....Who benefits?

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything. We just have a difference of opinion on personal finances. And you keep pushing the 'not your fault', 'the world owes you' and best (or worst) of all 'you are not smart enough to manage your own retirement.' I don't believe people are that stupid. We are TEAMSTERS! I take it for granted we are smarter than the average working person.

 

[dokman]

And the "average" investor understood all that? I mean the average employee whose employer only offers a 401(k) for retirement...?

Or is it one of those deals where you can never have enough training or education,...so if you lose, you're told: "Should've educated yourself better..."?

I get that you're an educated man, as far as the stock and bond market goes.....I understand that you believe everyone should "take responsibility" for their own retirement,...regardless of their fiscal smarts.....

But,.....that was the reason defined-benefit funds were established,...(..AND Government insured..).....so that the "average" working man could rest assured his retirement was in the hands of professionals,...AND insured....

But,...we see over the years, the machinations of the moneyed class are destroying those assurances..(..AND insurances...)....

Why?.....Who benefits?

And how is that working out for ya?

 

[dokman]

And the "average" investor understood all that? I mean the average employee whose employer only offers a 401(k) for retirement...?

Or is it one of those deals where you can never have enough training or education,...so if you lose, you're told: "Should've educated yourself better..."?

I get that you're an educated man, as far as the stock and bond market goes.....I understand that you believe everyone should "take responsibility" for their own retirement,...regardless of their fiscal smarts.....

But,.....that was the reason defined-benefit funds were established,...(..AND Government insured..).....so that the "average" working man could rest assured his retirement was in the hands of professionals,...AND insured....

But,...we see over the years, the machinations of the moneyed class are destroying those assurances..(..AND insurances...)....

Why?.....Who benefits?

Let the dems get there free college deal and use big bad Wall Street to pay for it with 1% on a bond trade and 1/2% on stock trade, on every trade.
Do the math and figure up how much that will effect the working class, middle class employees. I did it is staggering amount on what goes into CSPF every year. Money taken right up front from you and I.

 

[Homesick]

Let the dems get there free college deal and use big bad Wall Street to pay for it with 1% on a bond trade and 1/2% on stock trade, on every trade.
Do the math and figure up how much that will effect the working class, middle class employees. I did it is staggering amount on what goes into CSPF every year. Money taken right up front from you and I.

Please, no politics. It creates to much bad blood and hard feelings. Brother Canary and I just disagree on defined benefit plans versus defined contribution plans. Canary is more concerned with security. I'm more concerned with risk means higher rewards.

 

[dokman]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything. We just have a difference of opinion on personal finances. And you keep pushing the 'not your fault', 'the world owes you' and best (or worst) of all 'you are not smart enough to manage your own retirement.' I don't believe people are that stupid. We are TEAMSTERS! I take it for granted we are smarter than the average working person.

How long has 401k been in contract that company has to participate in? From day one Teamsters at my barn won’t invest because they think Teamsters control the money or can take it.

 

[Homesick]

How long has 401k been in contract that company has to participate in? From day one Teamsters at my barn won’t invest because they think Teamsters control the money or can take it.

I'm not sure I understand your question but I think you are asking how long has ABF 401k been with Teamsters Prudential institution? And that would be 6 or 7 years now. I can't remember the name of the previous 401k company at the moment but it was a well known financial institution. We changed last contract or the contract before that.

 

[Homesick]

Fidelity was the previous financial institution ABF used for our 401k

 

[GO40]

Dude do some research before you spew sh....... t.

You are one who can’t discipline your self to contribute to your own retirement.
Or want freebies.

Or work for a YRC company who voted their pension away....I still invest in my future in other ways besides my pension & im not in central states. Bottom line all pension’s May be hurting in the future but I sure won’t vote my pension away to keep my bid or vacation time. I will move on, I have 27 years in the union with 3 different companies....

 

[canaryinthemine]

Please, no politics. It creates to much bad blood and hard feelings. Brother Canary and I just disagree on defined benefit plans versus defined contribution plans. Canary is more concerned with security. I'm more concerned with risk means higher rewards.

Thank you, Brother. That pretty much explains our perspectives......

How long has 401k been in contract that company has to participate in? From day one Teamsters at my barn won’t invest because they think Teamsters control the money or can take it.

........And that pretty much proves my point about the “average” investor......
The amount of misinformation, rumor , and distrust.......plays right into the hands of people who control the 401(k)’s.....

The amount of financial savvy you have......does not matter with a defined-benefit pension......Only the amount of time....

 

[canaryinthemine]

Dude do some research before you spew sh....... t.

You are one who can’t discipline your self to contribute to your own retirement.
Or want freebies.

I am retired, Brother Dokman........more than 2 years. Enrolled in ABF-sponsored Fidelity 401(k) way back in 1996........After several "market adjustments"........I directed my contributions to no-risk bonds.....Tired of watching my money spin away on the big roulette wheel that Wall Street runs...

Didn't make any money,....but didn't lose any either....Just about the same amount of profit ...than if I had put it in a bank and earned interest.......

You see,......I don't have the "nerve"....to gamble with my retirement. Too important.......
But,....if a 401(k) is all your employer offers,........you have to...."gamble"......whether you want to, or not.

Or,....you don't have enough money to retire.

I think,.....for the Average investor,........the deck is stacked, and the rules are..."fluid"..(No one asked me if I wanted ABF to get out of Fidelity and go to Prudential...).
I think that the moneyed class promotes an ...idea that the ...average investor,....can achieve a rate of return that a veteran Wall Street Trader would be proud of.......

The leading edge of working class people who are retiring on a 401(k) solely,...is just now happening. May of 1998 is the first time in our history that defined-contribution 401(k)-style "pensions"....exceeded traditional defined-benefit pensions,...as an employer offering for retirement.

So,...it will shortly be seen whether the...."average"....person can successfully retire solely on a 401(k),.....or, was there a big sales push to....benefit Wall Street with an influx of payroll deduction cash from millions of people who....have no clue how to invest successfully......

I've heard a few horror stories of people "running out of money" in retirement. That does not happen with a defined-benefit pension,......so, this has to be an unfortunate individual who relied solely on a 401(k).
There are commercials on TV warning people to....use their advertised services,..to "prevent running out of money in retirement"....

There wouldn't be commercials advertising such,.....if the possibility didn't exist.

I just have a..."long view".....that the money "industry" in the world wants to wreck the ability of working people to...retire....
And,.....forced payroll deductions to 401(k)'s ...provides a helluva lotta "working cash"....that Wall Street didn't have 20 years ago.....

Keeping older workers in the Labor Pool longer,.....benefits whom?

 

[White]

Lack of pensions, bankrupt, or as a whole. Every increasing healthcare. Longer life expectancy. All things that make the middle class lay awake at night. These factors also are a burden on the economy. Saving vs spending. It’s the only way a common man can ever retire, if he’s lucky. All forecast & drawn up by suit & tie folks “happy” to work into their 70s. Guess your body doesn’t wear out sitting in an office.

 

[SAC75]

I am retired, Brother Dokman........more than 2 years. Enrolled in ABF-sponsored Fidelity 401(k) way back in 1996........After several "market adjustments"........I directed my contributions to no-risk bonds.....Tired of watching my money spin away on the big roulette wheel that Wall Street runs...

Didn't make any money,....but didn't lose any either....Just about the same amount of profit ...than if I had put it in a bank and earned interest.......

You see,......I don't have the "nerve"....to gamble with my retirement. Too important.......
But,....if a 401(k) is all your employer offers,........you have to...."gamble"......whether you want to, or not.

Or,....you don't have enough money to retire.

I think,.....for the Average investor,........the deck is stacked, and the rules are..."fluid"..(No one asked me if I wanted ABF to get out of Fidelity and go to Prudential...).
I think that the moneyed class promotes an ...idea that the ...average investor,....can achieve a rate of return that a veteran Wall Street Trader would be proud of.......

The leading edge of working class people who are retiring on a 401(k) solely,...is just now happening. May of 1998 is the first time in our history that defined-contribution 401(k)-style "pensions"....exceeded traditional defined-benefit pensions,...as an employer offering for retirement.

So,...it will shortly be seen whether the...."average"....person can successfully retire solely on a 401(k),.....or, was there a big sales push to....benefit Wall Street with an influx of payroll deduction cash from millions of people who....have no clue how to invest successfully......

I've heard a few horror stories of people "running out of money" in retirement. That does not happen with a defined-benefit pension,......so, this has to be an unfortunate individual who relied solely on a 401(k).
There are commercials on TV warning people to....use their advertised services,..to "prevent running out of money in retirement"....

There wouldn't be commercials advertising such,.....if the possibility didn't exist.

I just have a..."long view".....that the money "industry" in the world wants to wreck the ability of working people to...retire....
And,.....forced payroll deductions to 401(k)'s ...provides a helluva lotta "working cash"....that Wall Street didn't have 20 years ago.....

Keeping older workers in the Labor Pool longer,.....benefits whom?

I agree with you on taking a gamble. If you was set to retire in 2008 let’s say with a 401k, you would have had to postpone your retirement for about ten years give or take a couple. That’s a long time if you’re 62 to 72. The retirement age for me is 67 so far. Who knows what will happen.

 

[Trucker 206]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything. We just have a difference of opinion on personal finances. And you keep pushing the 'not your fault', 'the world owes you' and best (or worst) of all 'you are not smart enough to manage your own retirement.' I don't believe people are that stupid. We are TEAMSTERS! I take it for granted we are smarter than the average working person.

Canary did nothing of the sort, homesick. His post(s) contain(s) some ‘ifs’ plus lots of facts too. Frankly I’m suspect if you’re actually a Teamster member...if I’m wrong, then that’s on me. Undeniable is that fact that we have witnessed, over the last 40+ years, the largest transfer of wealth in human history. More and more, we see Wall Streets ‘soldiers’ pounding their ‘knowledge’ upon the American people on these 401k plans and IRA’s as if they’re the Second Coming of Christ (apologies to our Hebrew friends). Mind you, I’m not saying they’re all bad, as I have one myself...one that I have not put ONE DIME of my own money into, as I’ve rolled it a few times whether by changing employers, or by changing investment firms. It’s been kinda fun watching it over the last 26 years I must say! Up...down...up...down, etc. then...2008. KABOOM!!! Then there’s my Teamsters Pension Plan of which I’m now drawing on. The fund took a little dip ten years ago too, but is currently 93% funded. Pretty darn good, I’d say.

You’re investment-savvy...I like that. Me? Just an average Joe, but I do keep a finger on the pulse of my/our money. I wish we all had the financial ‘horse-sense’ to manage money enough for a secure and happy retirement. But, sadly, not all of us do. Best of luck to you, brother! May the warm winds of Heaven blow softly on your home, and may the Good Lord bless all who enter!